Adam,

Note you switch from an absolute (“target innocent”) to a relative (“recklessly” … “little”) standard. I'll leave the issue of rational, universal standards to the side, and merely point out that if you're going to use relative standards, they should be rational to their context. The Core/Seam/Gap model provides such a context — so perhaps you shouldn't “care less what intellectual boxes political theory puts a fighting force in.”

Eddie,

“In imprisoning, exiling and torturing countless Palestinian activists (both non-violent and violent) from 1967-Oslo Accord, it helped limit the creation of a viable, healthy and open Palestinian civil society,”

Most of the damage to Palestinian civil society came in the wake of Arafat's return to the West Bank. The First Intifadah was largely nonviolent (in spite of Arafat's orders for violent resistance) and self governed, self-supported, and self-propagated. The PLO did more to destroy this than the Arab dictatorships which ruled those lands from 1948 to 19967, or the relatively hands-off Israeli governance in the two decades that followed.

(and later)

“The P.I. & India have not occupied lands and resources (emphasis on the resources, especially with regards to water rights and access) that are 100% foreign to their long-term needs and interests.”

Some [1] folks [2] disagree.

Chirol,

Thanks for the job offer. I'll hold you to it.

Tom,

“[Israel] also should have known how hard it would be to destroy Hezbollah, and set their goals lower.”

Certainly Israel should have realized its Effects-Based Operation (EBO) attack on Hezbollah was unlikely to succeed. EBO, like its little brother 'global guerrillas,' assumes that an imaginary 'systempunkt' exists which would allow one to rapidly destroy an enemy system will relatively little damage. Classic counter-examples, such as the increasing German airplane production in WWII, are typically ignored by these advocates of a silver bullet.

Bill,

“How exactly is Israel 'winning' at this juncture? What is your metric?”

Israel's goal in Lebanon is isolating Syria from that Republic. See, for example, A Clean Break (1996) [3] An international solution to the fight that brings in the French (Lebanon's traditional protectors) would be a definite win.

Purpleslog,

In most western countries Jews are a market-dominant minority. This often leads to problems [4]

Phil,

Good comment.

Phil Jones,

“Ultimately, the demographic destiny is that Israel must become an Arab country with a Muslim majority and a Jewish minority. Or it must make Palestine as wealthy as Israel so the fertility rate comes down.”

Why? By the logic that Israel must become an Arab State, Singapore is destined to become a Malay State

“That is really the only way to restore any kind of stable, organic social fabric in this part of the world. But, right now, Israel is oriented around Jewish “identity politics” : how to *protect* this imported European culture and religion even as its population diminishes relative to those around it.”

Recent historical occurrences imply that Israelis are at least as concerned with “ethnic cleansing” at best, “genocide” at worst.

Sonny,

“We are not a monolithic culture but an ever evolving mix and that's what makes the United States the best damn country in the world.”

Here here! [5]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi#Operation_Blue_Star_and_assassination
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Islamic_Liberation_Front
[3] http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_on_Fire
[5] http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/03/29/drawing-north-america.html

I am not advocating for continuing the blame game. The Arabs already do a pretty good job themselves of blaming everybody but themselves about their sad state of affairs. My point is that I think Europe is getting a free ride in all of this. Pretty much all they do is criticize, but with very little action. It took us Americans to intervene in the Balkans to stop the genocide in their own backyard.

People are dying. True. People are dying in Iraq too at the hands of jihadists. People are dying in Darfur at the hands of Muslims. Israel has the basic right to protect its citizens from terrorism.

In this case, all the roads lead back to Iran and its religious extremism that's keeping the Middle East in the Gap. Iran and by extension the Hezbollah's view of Islam is incompatible with peaceful coexistence.

The grief that Israel gets for defending its borders from hostile enemies is really out of proportion when you compare it to any other nation in the world, except maybe us Americans. The Arabs have done far more brutal things against their own kinds that the Israelis ever imagined. The Russians killed thousands of civilians in Chechnya in the year 2000, yet I never saw Wolf Blitzer reporting from Grozny. I won't even mention what the Chinese have done to stamp down their perceived enemies.

The Muslims need to start concentrating in developing the talents of their people (men and women) for things other that launching rockets at civilians, building IEDs and suicide bombing. If not they'll keep lagging behind. Israel is a tiny nation (about the size of New Jersey) with about 6 million people. That's almost a rounding error compared to the combined population of the Muslim world. The Muslims problems with Israel is not about land. It's about their own failure and looking at the Israeli success in their own backyard.

I'm sorry to say that I think this perfectly illustrates the sort of thinking I hope we can get away from.

You said :

“I am not advocating for continuing the blame game.”

And then you spent the rest of the post essentially continuing the blame game, by enumerating all the other agents to whom blame could be attached. Namely :

– the arabs, for not accepting responsibility

– the europeans, for not getting blamed enough

– jihadists in Iraq

– muslims in Darfur

– people who don't think Israel has the right to defend its people from terrorism

– Iran, for keeping the middle-east in the Gap and for being incompatible with peaceful co-existence

– people who give Israel grief for defending itself

– arabs, for being worse than Israelis

– Russians, for atrocities in Chechnia

– Wolf Blitzer

– the Chinese

– muslims, for not developing the talents of their people in any direction other than rocketry and improvised armaments

– muslims, for being full of envious, failure-driven hate for Israeli success.

Like I say, I certainly don't think *any* of these agents are innocent of what you accuse them of. But the point is, we have to get away from the idea that their guilt is an *impediment* to us just getting on and doing the right thing for ourselves.

There are many right things that need to be done. And one of them is solving the ambiguity of the status of the Palestinians. *Not one* of the items on your list above actually prevents Israel from doing that.

Obsessing about the guilt of others is a waste of valuable energy that isn't going to help the situation in the slightest. The middle-east is doomed for as long as everyone keeps playing that game.

The Israelis withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and all they received in return was a barrage of hundreds of rockets aimed at their people lauched from the areas they used to control. Are they supposed to take a beating sitting down? The Hezbollah declared war on Israel. A war that they would not consider finished until Israel dissapears from the face of the earth. How do you negotiate with that? War is never pretty or clean. The Israelis are the last ones that one to go back to Lebanon. Notice how they've been dragging their feet to get a substantial ground component in southern Lebanon. They have made many mistakes is waging this particular chapter of the war, but fighting terrorists who hide among the innocent is never easy. The first step to solving a problem is recognizing the reality that you are in, no matter how brutal or uncomfortable that reality might be. Like I said before blame is one thing, responsibility is another. Just like the Israelis are responsible for defending their children from terrorist attacks, the Muslims are responsible for giving their children a better future than what they are creating for them today. And the problem goes way beyond Israel. We can evacuate all six million plus Israelis from the Levant starting tomorrow and I bet you that than won't solve the problems of the Middle East.

Inevitably, Iran will become the great nation it longs and deserves to be, defined by an open, robust democracy with some elements of Islam and Perisan culture thrown in there for good effect. This is my greatest hope and dream for the region, because it would offer a trio of strong, vibrant democracies in the region (Israel, Turkey & Iran) that could help stem the inevitable flow of chaos in Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere.

Phil Jones is spot-on with his policy advice for Israel. If I were America, I would follow this up by wrapping the EU, India, Russia, China and Japan into a binding committment to support Palestinian reconstruction efforts conducted by Palestinians themselves with help from the considerable Palestinian expat community abroad, including those willing to work from the multitude of ghettoes and camps in Jordan, Egypt, etc.

There is room for manuever. We can make a “new” middle east out of this mess, but it takes courage of a different kind than that seen on the battlefield, as well as ingenuity.

I'm certainly not trying to advocate or justify any “friction”. I agree that embracing and absorbing other cultures is both a symptom and cause of healthy societies.

I was just using that to help drive people's intuitive understanding. Plenty of times I read people writing about Arab / Israel who essentially write like they couldn't possibly even begin to imagine why arabs might resent the creation of Israel – and assume that it must be special kind of perversity of arabic brains to be so upset by it. Whereas I'd say that fearing and rejecting influxes of strange new people is a fairly universal human experience you can catch echos of everywhere.

If you personally don't have any feelings of this sort, then I applaud you. I'm certainly not trying to sell them to you or legitimize them. Quite the opposite. We should think like you.

I agree with you. The situation with Israel in the Middle East is bound to create friction. As you noted previously, here in the US we also have friction whenever two ethnicities come in contact with each other. As a member of a minority, I feel that friction on a daily basis, but it's not the driving force in my life. To some extent, I can understand the resentment that Arabs feel due to the creation of the state of Israel, however, that resentment should not be the driving force of your society.

Completely agree. Shouldn't be the driving force.

But we need to recognise that it exists and have a strategy for overcoming it. Just saying it's not legitimate, or ignoring it, won't work.

Do they want to work towards a future where they and the Palestinians could build an admirable economic dynamo in the region (complete with water resources that many in the region do not have, an issue that will become as important than water in the near to mid future unless technology somehow heads it off)?

This is highly possible, but it will take Israeli and American imagination and a regional reckoning with all parties on their security and Israel's. Because you can't shrink the Gap without lifting hopes among the people who are your direct neighbors, as well as a massive community of people who live within your borders but feel ostracized, angry and hopeless.

The Arabs must play a part too (the Saudis, Jordanians and Egyptians have all been hung out to dry over the past 6 years), but this is primarily an issue the Israelis have to take the lead on. They have to (a) be prepared to offer their neighbors security and (b) be prepared to invest heavily in the Palestinian's future. A benvevolent form of economic imperialism ala South Africa in Mozambique/Zimbabwe would be the best route for the short-term, building up Palestinian infrastructure and spurring confidence.

I think we agree on the end result, but disagree on the means to acheive it.

As Eddie writes:

“This is highly possible, but it will take Israeli and American imagination and a regional reckoning with all parties on their security and Israel's.”

It's good that you also add Arab and Muslim imagination (and good will and determination) to that mix. Unfortunately Iran (and Syria) are not too cooperative on this matter. And…what about Europe? Are the Europeans so irrelevant these days than they don't merit even an honorary mention in this matter? After all, if we are going to play the blame game, shouldn't the Euros play some part in the solution? After all, many Israelis are the descendants of refugees who fled the horrible anti-Semitism of Europe.

The Saudis et al, have not been hung out to dry. The Israelis can take the lead all they want but it is very difficult to negotiate with people who want to see your country erased from the face of the earth.