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	<title>Comments on: Classroom Democracy, Part IV: The Evolution of Learning</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html</link>
	<description>High-minded, fanatically malthusian perspectives</description>
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		<title>By: tdaxp</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-243433</link>
		<dc:creator>tdaxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-243433</guid>
		<description>Michael,

&lt;blockquote&gt;Ironic statement considering your own educational background:P&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Haha! :-)  You can tell I was still learning the field when I wrote this series!

&lt;blockquote&gt;Let me guess: PhD and D.Ed candidates aren’t required to prove themselves as good teachers before entering the programs?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Or on leaving the program, either.  

I had the wonderful opportunity last semester to have some extended conversation with a faculty member who is on a national board designed to re-define the D.Ed. degree into an advanced, teaching-focused degree.  Currently, it&#039;s a relic of a battle a century ago between Colleges of Arts &amp; Sciences and Colleges of Education, that no longer matters.

Shadi, Purpleslog &amp; Brent Grace,

Thanks for the kind words!  :-) I had not thought about it, but I do see a need.  (If I do so, it will be after &lt;i&gt;5GW: The Fifth Generation of War&lt;/i&gt;, and have new material relating to assessment)

Since writing this I became aware of the idea of the &quot;democratic classroom&quot; by John Dewer (who is held in very high esteem by educational scholars, and in a quaint type of respect by educational psychologists).  I should also describe similarities and diferences between that approach, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<blockquote><p>Ironic statement considering your own educational background:P</p></blockquote>
<p>Haha! <img src='http://www.tdaxp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   You can tell I was still learning the field when I wrote this series!</p>
<blockquote><p>Let me guess: PhD and D.Ed candidates aren’t required to prove themselves as good teachers before entering the programs?</p></blockquote>
<p>Or on leaving the program, either.  </p>
<p>I had the wonderful opportunity last semester to have some extended conversation with a faculty member who is on a national board designed to re-define the D.Ed. degree into an advanced, teaching-focused degree.  Currently, it&#8217;s a relic of a battle a century ago between Colleges of Arts &#038; Sciences and Colleges of Education, that no longer matters.</p>
<p>Shadi, Purpleslog &#038; Brent Grace,</p>
<p>Thanks for the kind words!  <img src='http://www.tdaxp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  I had not thought about it, but I do see a need.  (If I do so, it will be after <i>5GW: The Fifth Generation of War</i>, and have new material relating to assessment)</p>
<p>Since writing this I became aware of the idea of the &#8220;democratic classroom&#8221; by John Dewer (who is held in very high esteem by educational scholars, and in a quaint type of respect by educational psychologists).  I should also describe similarities and diferences between that approach, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-243149</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 01:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-243149</guid>
		<description>&quot;Instead, our poor field is oppressed by interlopers from psychology or economics. Students are naturally curious, the psychologists tell us, and so we should merely facilitate their natural desire to learn the materials. . .&quot;

Ironic statement considering your own educational background:P

&quot;That&#039;s ok. Education professors rarely apply the tools they discuss either ( ” Do as I say…”)&quot;

Let me guess: PhD and D.Ed candidates aren&#039;t required to prove themselves as good teachers before entering the programs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Instead, our poor field is oppressed by interlopers from psychology or economics. Students are naturally curious, the psychologists tell us, and so we should merely facilitate their natural desire to learn the materials. . .&#8221;</p>
<p>Ironic statement considering your own educational background:P</p>
<p>&#8220;That&#8217;s ok. Education professors rarely apply the tools they discuss either ( ” Do as I say…”)&#8221;</p>
<p>Let me guess: PhD and D.Ed candidates aren&#8217;t required to prove themselves as good teachers before entering the programs?</p>
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		<title>By: purpleslog</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-243127</link>
		<dc:creator>purpleslog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-243127</guid>
		<description>I second that! I ask other teachers about this idea and none of them have every heard of anything like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second that! I ask other teachers about this idea and none of them have every heard of anything like it.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-242907</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-242907</guid>
		<description>Dan 
   Have you ever thought of taking some of these outside the box teaching techniques you&#039;ve devloped and putting them into a Nimble book? It would be great to see these ideas adopted at other universities and a book may be good way to get your ideas to the masses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan<br />
   Have you ever thought of taking some of these outside the box teaching techniques you&#8217;ve devloped and putting them into a Nimble book? It would be great to see these ideas adopted at other universities and a book may be good way to get your ideas to the masses.</p>
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		<title>By: shadi</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-37171</link>
		<dc:creator>shadi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-37171</guid>
		<description>good topic 
ihope if we can apply it in our school 
the students  are the most important element in education proces
thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good topic<br />
ihope if we can apply it in our school<br />
the students  are the most important element in education proces<br />
thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Sean </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-15050</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-15050</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;interesting. Christine and i are discussing these ideas this morning over coffee (and she&#039;s, frankly, a little skeptical ;-)&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting. Christine and i are discussing these ideas this morning over coffee (and she&#39;s, frankly, a little skeptical <img src='http://www.tdaxp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-15051</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-15051</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Sean,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Cool!  What are Christine&#039;s comments/criticisms/questions?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Larry,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; You are right that this mechanism builds adaptive behavior, both in groups and individuals.  One day, for instance, a Prime Minister was elected who had not been attending class nor reading the material.  Predictable, little was achieved that day, because the Prime Minister did not know want he want lectured, what to review, etc.  There was not a repeat of that.  The lesson students learn: if students run the classrom, choose a capable student.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Another time, the class decided to spend the session before the test watching a movie instead of reviewing for the test.  (The vote was close.)  After the test, a number of students came up to me insisting they probably would have received a higher grade (from half a grade letter to a full grade letter) if they had just a little more time to think of the correct answer.  I explained that those areas they were &quot;slow&quot; on where in the test review notes (and even made the test review notes available to demonstrate this).  The lesson students learn: if the classrom is run without attention to academics, academics hurt.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; It&#039;s important to mentor self-regulating strategies, and I think classroom democracy is a good way to do this.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; I haven&#039;t applied the suggestions in Part IV (particularly the group competions), but I imagine they would speed up those benefits of classroom democracy.  The biggest question I have is how this &quot;evolutionary&quot; classroom and classrom democracy should fit together best.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Mark,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; I am very lucky in that the Educational Psychology faculty apply what they are teaching.  Dr. Kiewra, who is something a cognitivist-behavioralist, consciously runs his classes and seminars along those lines and explains how students can turn around and run their classes along thsoe lines, too.  Another professor is more of a straight behavioralist and runs his classes that way.  Yet another is a social ) constructivist who teaches in a very vygotskian manner, and another is a constructivist who uses piagetian tactics.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; It is INCREDIBLY useful to be exposed to these philosophies through these philosophies.  The experience is amazing.  My props to them.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean,</p>
<p> Cool!  What are Christine&#39;s comments/criticisms/questions?</p>
<p> Larry,</p>
<p> You are right that this mechanism builds adaptive behavior, both in groups and individuals.  One day, for instance, a Prime Minister was elected who had not been attending class nor reading the material.  Predictable, little was achieved that day, because the Prime Minister did not know want he want lectured, what to review, etc.  There was not a repeat of that.  The lesson students learn: if students run the classrom, choose a capable student.</p>
<p> Another time, the class decided to spend the session before the test watching a movie instead of reviewing for the test.  (The vote was close.)  After the test, a number of students came up to me insisting they probably would have received a higher grade (from half a grade letter to a full grade letter) if they had just a little more time to think of the correct answer.  I explained that those areas they were &#8220;slow&#8221; on where in the test review notes (and even made the test review notes available to demonstrate this).  The lesson students learn: if the classrom is run without attention to academics, academics hurt.</p>
<p> It&#39;s important to mentor self-regulating strategies, and I think classroom democracy is a good way to do this.</p>
<p> I haven&#39;t applied the suggestions in Part IV (particularly the group competions), but I imagine they would speed up those benefits of classroom democracy.  The biggest question I have is how this &#8220;evolutionary&#8221; classroom and classrom democracy should fit together best.</p>
<p> Mark,</p>
<p> I am very lucky in that the Educational Psychology faculty apply what they are teaching.  Dr. Kiewra, who is something a cognitivist-behavioralist, consciously runs his classes and seminars along those lines and explains how students can turn around and run their classes along thsoe lines, too.  Another professor is more of a straight behavioralist and runs his classes that way.  Yet another is a social ) constructivist who teaches in a very vygotskian manner, and another is a constructivist who uses piagetian tactics.</p>
<p> It is INCREDIBLY useful to be exposed to these philosophies through these philosophies.  The experience is amazing.  My props to them.</p>
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		<title>By: mark safranski </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-15048</link>
		<dc:creator>mark safranski </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-15048</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;&quot;Political scientists rarely apply the tools of political science to the problem of teaching political science&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; That&#039;s ok. Education professors rarely apply the tools they discuss either ( &quot; Do as I say...&quot;)&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Political scientists rarely apply the tools of political science to the problem of teaching political science&#8221;</p>
<p> That&#39;s ok. Education professors rarely apply the tools they discuss either ( &#8221; Do as I say&#8230;&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Dunbar </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-15049</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Dunbar </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-15049</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;The way I see it, one of the problems is that in the classroom, reality is fake. The students are really tied together by a leviathan force applied according to the rule-sets of the society. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; If the classroom really represented a reality that was a complex adaptive system, the rules of a network would apply. The resources would go to the students with the resource and would be taken from the students that had nothing. While this leviathan force artificially binds the classroom, the granting of points to those who earn them would seem to be an attempt to create a system similar to a complex adaptive system, while controlling, or perhaps more accurately training, the resources equally. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Because the reality of the classroom is really only the reality of the teacher, no matter what you do the students will adapt just fine. If you give all the points before the class, the students wanting just a passing grade will figure it out and use their resources according to what is best in their situation. When a point in time is reached that they are pretty much guaranteed a passing grade their resources will go where needed. The students will adapt no matter what you do, so, it would seem to me, how you give out points would not matter much.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Most students are making judgments about the best way to use their resources, than what the class has to teach. A teacher with a reputation that will look good on their resume might win over a teacher who has better comprehensive skills and teaches a 5-credit course. The student is not only adapting to the classroom, but to the program, financial support, and social skills as well. So while the reality maybe that you are really “reaching” your students, it maybe that those that can adapt to your teaching style are looking for an easy, less time consuming, 3-credit (or however many) course. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; What you are really trying to produce is a complex adaptive system (student) that is not dependent on one course or one teacher, but can adapt to any system it is exposed to. So it would seem to me that one goal of a good teacher would be to make the classroom environment as complex (not necessarily hard to understand but move in a complex manner) as possible. I have always appreciated teachers who could build complexity into their studies. This is what it sounds like you are attempting, bravo.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way I see it, one of the problems is that in the classroom, reality is fake. The students are really tied together by a leviathan force applied according to the rule-sets of the society. </p>
<p> If the classroom really represented a reality that was a complex adaptive system, the rules of a network would apply. The resources would go to the students with the resource and would be taken from the students that had nothing. While this leviathan force artificially binds the classroom, the granting of points to those who earn them would seem to be an attempt to create a system similar to a complex adaptive system, while controlling, or perhaps more accurately training, the resources equally. </p>
<p> Because the reality of the classroom is really only the reality of the teacher, no matter what you do the students will adapt just fine. If you give all the points before the class, the students wanting just a passing grade will figure it out and use their resources according to what is best in their situation. When a point in time is reached that they are pretty much guaranteed a passing grade their resources will go where needed. The students will adapt no matter what you do, so, it would seem to me, how you give out points would not matter much.</p>
<p> Most students are making judgments about the best way to use their resources, than what the class has to teach. A teacher with a reputation that will look good on their resume might win over a teacher who has better comprehensive skills and teaches a 5-credit course. The student is not only adapting to the classroom, but to the program, financial support, and social skills as well. So while the reality maybe that you are really “reaching” your students, it maybe that those that can adapt to your teaching style are looking for an easy, less time consuming, 3-credit (or however many) course. </p>
<p> What you are really trying to produce is a complex adaptive system (student) that is not dependent on one course or one teacher, but can adapt to any system it is exposed to. So it would seem to me that one goal of a good teacher would be to make the classroom environment as complex (not necessarily hard to understand but move in a complex manner) as possible. I have always appreciated teachers who could build complexity into their studies. This is what it sounds like you are attempting, bravo.</p>
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		<title>By: mark safranski </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html/comment-page-1#comment-15052</link>
		<dc:creator>mark safranski </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/10/07/classroom-democracy-part-iv-the-evolution-of-learning.html#comment-15052</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Hi Dan,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; That&#039;s exceptionally rare to see a prof, much less a department, walk the talk lke that - the comparative modelling going on is very useful indeed.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dan,</p>
<p> That&#39;s exceptionally rare to see a prof, much less a department, walk the talk lke that &#8211; the comparative modelling going on is very useful indeed.</p>
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