Comments on: Askhanazim Jewry, g, and Higher Education http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html All of us against the machine Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:18:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Michael http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html/comment-page-1#comment-16541 Michael Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html#comment-16541 <p>Unfortunately, there's one problem you overlooked: rich alumni. If the stereotype is to be believed, what well-endowed donors want (breaks for their offspring or for talented athletes), well-endowed donors get.</p> Unfortunately, there's one problem you overlooked: rich alumni. If the stereotype is to be believed, what well-endowed donors want (breaks for their offspring or for talented athletes), well-endowed donors get.

]]> By: Dan tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html/comment-page-1#comment-16542 Dan tdaxp Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html#comment-16542 <p>Michael,<br /> <br /> I agree with you on rich alumni... how is this a problem? (I think I am missing something... to much traveling, perhaps)</p> Michael,

I agree with you on rich alumni… how is this a problem? (I think I am missing something… to much traveling, perhaps)

]]> By: farrah http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html/comment-page-1#comment-16543 farrah Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html#comment-16543 <p>While I'm still rather (i.e. extremely) uncomfortable with the ideas you present about general intelligence being a quantifiable factor with racial implications, I can't help but wonder if the book's author was, in claiming that standardized tests were in part designed to keep the Jews out of the Ivies, merely attempting to appeal to an older Jewish audience who would likely be resistant to his ideas about socioeconomic affirmative action. <br /> <br /> I've seen socioeconomic affirmative action policies work before, but only when they've been applied for students whose lower grades or seemingly poor performance were genuinely the result of economic disadvantage. I suppose it's another issue where I'm sitting firmly on the fence. If applied and thought through, it works. If it's meant simply to turn discrimination on its head or flip it over, it's not going to work.<br /> <br /> And whoever suggested to you that Ashkenazim were historically endogamous? That's almost as bad as suggesting that the blood libel were true. ;)</p> While I'm still rather (i.e. extremely) uncomfortable with the ideas you present about general intelligence being a quantifiable factor with racial implications, I can't help but wonder if the book's author was, in claiming that standardized tests were in part designed to keep the Jews out of the Ivies, merely attempting to appeal to an older Jewish audience who would likely be resistant to his ideas about socioeconomic affirmative action.

I've seen socioeconomic affirmative action policies work before, but only when they've been applied for students whose lower grades or seemingly poor performance were genuinely the result of economic disadvantage. I suppose it's another issue where I'm sitting firmly on the fence. If applied and thought through, it works. If it's meant simply to turn discrimination on its head or flip it over, it's not going to work.

And whoever suggested to you that Ashkenazim were historically endogamous? That's almost as bad as suggesting that the blood libel were true. ;)

]]> By: Michael http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html/comment-page-1#comment-16544 Michael Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html#comment-16544 <p>Sorry it's taking me a while to respond to things; the past few days have been rough.<br /> <br /> You seem to be looking as having two dimensions: academics and personal bias. I was pointing out that- if the popular stereotype has any legitimacy- there are other dimensions to this. For the record, I've never been within a thousand miles of an Ivy-League college, so the occasional news article is about all I have to go on with this; add salt accordingly.<br /> <br /> One dimension is money; alumni who make sizeable donations can pretty well get what they want. If this is correct, then the rate of change at one of these colleges will be slow until the alumni themselves decide they want a purely meritocratic admissions system, or the administration decides to show more backbone.<br /> <br /> Another dimension is the variability of what those alumni are actually interested in; while there probably are those motivated by racial bias, many are reputedly have other interests. Whatever the origin of the athletic tradition, many alumni are now concerned with the recruitment of good athletes because they want their teams to do well. And concern for the legacy system can stem as much from a desire to give one's offspring the same boost in life (prestige, connections, etc) oneself received early on.<br /> <br /> Like I said, I'm not Ivy-league, so my knowledge is third-hand at best. And I'm not defending these practices. I'm just pointing out that bias may not necessarily be the prime mover in the continuation of these traditions, at least not now.</p> Sorry it's taking me a while to respond to things; the past few days have been rough.

You seem to be looking as having two dimensions: academics and personal bias. I was pointing out that- if the popular stereotype has any legitimacy- there are other dimensions to this. For the record, I've never been within a thousand miles of an Ivy-League college, so the occasional news article is about all I have to go on with this; add salt accordingly.

One dimension is money; alumni who make sizeable donations can pretty well get what they want. If this is correct, then the rate of change at one of these colleges will be slow until the alumni themselves decide they want a purely meritocratic admissions system, or the administration decides to show more backbone.

Another dimension is the variability of what those alumni are actually interested in; while there probably are those motivated by racial bias, many are reputedly have other interests. Whatever the origin of the athletic tradition, many alumni are now concerned with the recruitment of good athletes because they want their teams to do well. And concern for the legacy system can stem as much from a desire to give one's offspring the same boost in life (prestige, connections, etc) oneself received early on.

Like I said, I'm not Ivy-league, so my knowledge is third-hand at best. And I'm not defending these practices. I'm just pointing out that bias may not necessarily be the prime mover in the continuation of these traditions, at least not now.

]]> By: Dan tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html/comment-page-1#comment-16545 Dan tdaxp Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/04/22/askhanazim-jewry-g-and-higher-education.html#comment-16545 <p>Michael,<br /> <br /> An extremely reasonable comment. In-group favoritism is a human universal, and doubtless a lot of these things is better explained as a group of people favoring themselves.<br /> <br /> Farrah,<br /> <br /> Very good thoughts. In your opinion, why would an older Jewish audience tend to be against socioeconomic affirmative action? Would they be criticizing it, by and large, from a liberal or conservative perspective?</p> Michael,

An extremely reasonable comment. In-group favoritism is a human universal, and doubtless a lot of these things is better explained as a group of people favoring themselves.

Farrah,

Very good thoughts. In your opinion, why would an older Jewish audience tend to be against socioeconomic affirmative action? Would they be criticizing it, by and large, from a liberal or conservative perspective?

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