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	<title>Comments on: Orientation and Action, Part II: The OODA-PISRR Loop</title>
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	<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html</link>
	<description>All of us against the machine</description>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-84549</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-84549</guid>
		<description>Jay,

Best of luck!

zenpundit,

An excellent discussion of what Aherring calls the &quot;operative actions&quot; [1] of the gradients of war (xGW)!


[1] http://dreaming5gw.com/2007/10/xgw_left_of_boom_right_of_boom.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,</p>
<p>Best of luck!</p>
<p>zenpundit,</p>
<p>An excellent discussion of what Aherring calls the &#8220;operative actions&#8221; [1] of the gradients of war (xGW)!</p>
<p>[1] <a href="http://dreaming5gw.com/2007/10/xgw_left_of_boom_right_of_boom.php" rel="nofollow">http://dreaming5gw.com/2007/10/xgw_left_of_boom_right_of_boom.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jay@Soob</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-84519</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay@Soob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-84519</guid>
		<description>I hope you won&#039;t mind that I&#039;ve borrowed your above OODA/xGW illustration. You will, of course, be credited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you won&#8217;t mind that I&#8217;ve borrowed your above OODA/xGW illustration. You will, of course, be credited.</p>
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		<title>By:  Isaac </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17373</link>
		<dc:creator> Isaac </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17373</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Excellent work, Dan.  I can&#039;t believe there is just the one comment over at 5GW by Ryan, who needs a link to the &#039;shift to the unseen&#039; post of some time ago to explain the placement of the 2GW arrow...  I&#039;m still digesting this post.  Could we not, instead of &#039;the state-within&#039;, consider &#039;post-statism&#039; in that it&#039;s a move beyond the state, yet one we must make surrounded by, somewhat tethered to, and intimately familiar with state constructs?&lt;br /&gt; Isaac&lt;br /&gt; PS - I still can&#039;t use my Typekey from work...so, I had to post here.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent work, Dan.  I can&#39;t believe there is just the one comment over at 5GW by Ryan, who needs a link to the &#39;shift to the unseen&#39; post of some time ago to explain the placement of the 2GW arrow&#8230;  I&#39;m still digesting this post.  Could we not, instead of &#39;the state-within&#39;, consider &#39;post-statism&#39; in that it&#39;s a move beyond the state, yet one we must make surrounded by, somewhat tethered to, and intimately familiar with state constructs?<br /> Isaac<br /> PS &#8211; I still can&#39;t use my Typekey from work&#8230;so, I had to post here.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17374</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17374</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;I still am not clear on the definition of 5GW.  Arherring&#039;s definition over at D5GW [1] is way too vague for my tastes.  The combination of your OODA loop diagram and your note that 5GW is waged by &quot;states within&quot; (i.e. conspiracies of individuals leveraging state power for their own ends?) comes closest to something solid that I can choose to either agree or disagree with.  Are you working with Arherring&#039;s definition or do you have something more solid in your head?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fifthgeneration.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/01/working_definition_v_23.php&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.fifthgeneration.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/01/working_definition_v_23.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still am not clear on the definition of 5GW.  Arherring&#39;s definition over at D5GW [1] is way too vague for my tastes.  The combination of your OODA loop diagram and your note that 5GW is waged by &#8220;states within&#8221; (i.e. conspiracies of individuals leveraging state power for their own ends?) comes closest to something solid that I can choose to either agree or disagree with.  Are you working with Arherring&#39;s definition or do you have something more solid in your head?</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://www.fifthgeneration.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/01/working_definition_v_23.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.fifthgeneration.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/01/working_definition_v_23.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17375</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17375</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Great post - need to link this after I grab some grub.....&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post &#8211; need to link this after I grab some grub&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17376</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17376</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;2GW exceeds 1GW in kinetics - both quantitatively as well as qualitatively. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Moreover, I think the argument can be made that 2GW forces will continue to steadily expand their kinetics until they reach either victory or an economic sticking point that curtails further increase.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2GW exceeds 1GW in kinetics &#8211; both quantitatively as well as qualitatively. </p>
<p> Moreover, I think the argument can be made that 2GW forces will continue to steadily expand their kinetics until they reach either victory or an economic sticking point that curtails further increase.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17377</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17377</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;zenpundit,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;2GW exceeds 1GW in kinetics - both quantitatively as well as qualitatively. &quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Could you elaborate?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;I think the argument can be made that 2GW forces will continue to steadily expand their kinetics until they reach either victory or an economic sticking point that curtails further increase.&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; This was attempted during World War I and failed.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The breakthroughts that did occur in the Great War involved far less concentration of firepower -- and even less firepower -- but better strategy/initiative/infiltration (see hte &quot;Blitzkrieg and guerrilla strategy&quot; slide above).&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Adrian &amp; Isaac,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; A fifth generation force works to achieve its objectives through pertburbing systems in such a war that further work is unnessary.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In the context of a state-sponsored 5GW, a state-within will generate a state-beyond that then has a logic of its own.  The Military-Industrial-Leviathan-Complex is a perfect example by this.  A small cadre during the Truman years were able to build up an enormous transpolitical operation, consisting of the bureaucracy, congress, and contractors [1], that survives to this day.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In the context of an insurgent-sponsored 5GW, a guerrlla core will provoke a crisis that, if all goes well, ends in a preferred outcome.  The last section of &quot;Dreaming 5th Generation War&quot; [2] provides a hypothetical example of this.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In both cases the 5GW organization operates this way because it perceives its own weakness.  In both examples I gave, the small group of 5GWs recognize that they cannot win a political (let alone a military) struggle against their opponents and cannot otherwise enforce their will.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Isaac,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;Could we not, instead of &#039;the state-within&#039;, consider &#039;post-statism&#039; in that it&#039;s a move beyond the state, yet one we must make surrounded by, somewhat tethered to, and intimately familiar with state constructs?&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/07/describing-the-military-industrial-sysadmin-complex-how-we-w.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/07/describing-the-military-industrial-sysadmin-complex-how-we-w.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; [2] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07/20/dreaming-5th-generation-war.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07/20/dreaming-5th-generation-war.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>zenpundit,</p>
<p> &#8220;2GW exceeds 1GW in kinetics &#8211; both quantitatively as well as qualitatively. &#8220;</p>
<p> Could you elaborate?</p>
<p> &#8220;I think the argument can be made that 2GW forces will continue to steadily expand their kinetics until they reach either victory or an economic sticking point that curtails further increase.&#8221;</p>
<p> This was attempted during World War I and failed.</p>
<p> The breakthroughts that did occur in the Great War involved far less concentration of firepower &#8212; and even less firepower &#8212; but better strategy/initiative/infiltration (see hte &#8220;Blitzkrieg and guerrilla strategy&#8221; slide above).</p>
<p> Adrian &amp; Isaac,</p>
<p> A fifth generation force works to achieve its objectives through pertburbing systems in such a war that further work is unnessary.</p>
<p> In the context of a state-sponsored 5GW, a state-within will generate a state-beyond that then has a logic of its own.  The Military-Industrial-Leviathan-Complex is a perfect example by this.  A small cadre during the Truman years were able to build up an enormous transpolitical operation, consisting of the bureaucracy, congress, and contractors [1], that survives to this day.</p>
<p> In the context of an insurgent-sponsored 5GW, a guerrlla core will provoke a crisis that, if all goes well, ends in a preferred outcome.  The last section of &#8220;Dreaming 5th Generation War&#8221; [2] provides a hypothetical example of this.</p>
<p> In both cases the 5GW organization operates this way because it perceives its own weakness.  In both examples I gave, the small group of 5GWs recognize that they cannot win a political (let alone a military) struggle against their opponents and cannot otherwise enforce their will.</p>
<p> Isaac,</p>
<p> &#8220;Could we not, instead of &#39;the state-within&#39;, consider &#39;post-statism&#39; in that it&#39;s a move beyond the state, yet one we must make surrounded by, somewhat tethered to, and intimately familiar with state constructs?&#8221;</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/07/describing-the-military-industrial-sysadmin-complex-how-we-w.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/07/describing-the-military-industrial-sysadmin-complex-how-we-w.html</a><br /> [2] <a href="http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07/20/dreaming-5th-generation-war.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07/20/dreaming-5th-generation-war.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17378</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17378</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;The &quot; breakthroughs&quot; to which you refer are movement toward the 3rd generation. 2nd Generation continued to develop in a linear path alongside the emerging manuverist generation.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; 2nd generation tactics continued to increase in orders of magnitude for the duration of the Great War until combatants were stymied by supply problems. This trend continued in WWII where Soviet forces, a 2nd Generation attrition-focused entity if there ever was one, assembled whole *artillery armies* ( possibly reaching artillery/rocket army corps as well but I would have to check that)&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8221; breakthroughs&#8221; to which you refer are movement toward the 3rd generation. 2nd Generation continued to develop in a linear path alongside the emerging manuverist generation.</p>
<p> 2nd generation tactics continued to increase in orders of magnitude for the duration of the Great War until combatants were stymied by supply problems. This trend continued in WWII where Soviet forces, a 2nd Generation attrition-focused entity if there ever was one, assembled whole *artillery armies* ( possibly reaching artillery/rocket army corps as well but I would have to check that)</p>
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		<title>By:  sonofsamphm1c </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17379</link>
		<dc:creator> sonofsamphm1c </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17379</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;The Russians get a great deal of unwarranted criticism for their casualties.  The fact is it was going to take millions of casualties to defeat the German army that had invaded their country, which was a very different German army than we faced off against in Western Europe.  There was no other way for them to do it.  We supported what they did.  What do you think was their alternative?  The French approach?&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Russians get a great deal of unwarranted criticism for their casualties.  The fact is it was going to take millions of casualties to defeat the German army that had invaded their country, which was a very different German army than we faced off against in Western Europe.  There was no other way for them to do it.  We supported what they did.  What do you think was their alternative?  The French approach?</p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html/comment-page-1#comment-17380</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/16/orientation-and-action-part-ii-the-ooda-pisrr-loop.html#comment-17380</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;&quot;What do you think was their alternative? The French approach?&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Actually, it was the French approach (for the most part) but with economies of scale in manpower. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Secondly, no one here is arguing that the Soviets were not facing the bulk of the Wehrmacht. Criticism leveled by most experts at Russian performance in WWII has to do with the rigidity in tactics that Stalin imposed on Red Army commanders early in the war that raised Russian casualty rates to stratospheric levels.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What do you think was their alternative? The French approach?&#8221;</p>
<p> Actually, it was the French approach (for the most part) but with economies of scale in manpower. </p>
<p> Secondly, no one here is arguing that the Soviets were not facing the bulk of the Wehrmacht. Criticism leveled by most experts at Russian performance in WWII has to do with the rigidity in tactics that Stalin imposed on Red Army commanders early in the war that raised Russian casualty rates to stratospheric levels.</p>
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