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	<title>Comments on: US Public Schools &#8212; Still Terrible (after all these years)</title>
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	<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html</link>
	<description>High-minded, fanatically malthusian perspectives</description>
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		<title>By: zenpundit </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17394</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17394</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;It is intended to smash the system - unfortunately, NCLB seems to do most of its &quot;smashing&quot; on the schools and districts that are by any rational measure, functioning very well while doing little to remediate schools that are, by any rational measure, total failures.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; And the best part of NCLB, getting qualified instructors into the classroom, is where the Feds are wavering the most.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is intended to smash the system &#8211; unfortunately, NCLB seems to do most of its &#8220;smashing&#8221; on the schools and districts that are by any rational measure, functioning very well while doing little to remediate schools that are, by any rational measure, total failures.</p>
<p> And the best part of NCLB, getting qualified instructors into the classroom, is where the Feds are wavering the most.</p>
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		<title>By:  sonofsamphm1c </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17395</link>
		<dc:creator> sonofsamphm1c </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17395</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;This is all so much HS - horse stuff.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; My children attended inner-city public schools in two of the worst school districts in the nation: Dallas and Houston ISDs.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In our experience they attended very good schools.  People are using statistics to tell gigantic lies.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all so much HS &#8211; horse stuff.</p>
<p> My children attended inner-city public schools in two of the worst school districts in the nation: Dallas and Houston ISDs.</p>
<p> In our experience they attended very good schools.  People are using statistics to tell gigantic lies.</p>
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		<title>By: shane </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17396</link>
		<dc:creator>shane </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;I second Zen&#039;s comment.  The challenge NCLB has yet to overcome -- but lacks the authority to achieve -- is breaking the unionist strength of the teachers&#039; lobby in allowing merit and performance to dictate rewards and opportunities.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second Zen&#39;s comment.  The challenge NCLB has yet to overcome &#8212; but lacks the authority to achieve &#8212; is breaking the unionist strength of the teachers&#39; lobby in allowing merit and performance to dictate rewards and opportunities.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17397</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17397</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Public schools in the United States perform poorly in general, though some are much better and some are much worse.  &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In other words, mean quality is low and unreliability is high.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; These are the signs of a seriously broken system.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; NCLB does the same thing to public education as the Zip code did to the postal service: take &quot;skill&quot; out of the equation.  Before the zip code post masters needed skill to determine how letters to various states and cities should be sorted.  After the zip code they merely had to follow programatic instruction&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; If the government had been willing to pay post masters a higher salary and maintain and HR program to ensure they had initiative and what-not [1] Zip would not have been necessary.  But the government was unwilling to sustain those things, so the Zip became vital.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In the same way, if the local governments in the United States were willing to front the money and the HR supervision necessary to reform the public school system, NCLB and what comes next would not be necessary.  But the local governments are not.  So the initiatives are.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Growing Adaptive Teachers [1] hs failed.  American public schools need a six sigma solution.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/2007_conference/vandergriff_2007_boyd_conference.ppt&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/2007_conference/vandergriff_2007_boyd_conference.ppt&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Public schools in the United States perform poorly in general, though some are much better and some are much worse.  </p>
<p> In other words, mean quality is low and unreliability is high.</p>
<p> These are the signs of a seriously broken system.</p>
<p> NCLB does the same thing to public education as the Zip code did to the postal service: take &#8220;skill&#8221; out of the equation.  Before the zip code post masters needed skill to determine how letters to various states and cities should be sorted.  After the zip code they merely had to follow programatic instruction</p>
<p> If the government had been willing to pay post masters a higher salary and maintain and HR program to ensure they had initiative and what-not [1] Zip would not have been necessary.  But the government was unwilling to sustain those things, so the Zip became vital.</p>
<p> In the same way, if the local governments in the United States were willing to front the money and the HR supervision necessary to reform the public school system, NCLB and what comes next would not be necessary.  But the local governments are not.  So the initiatives are.</p>
<p> Growing Adaptive Teachers [1] hs failed.  American public schools need a six sigma solution.</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/2007_conference/vandergriff_2007_boyd_conference.ppt" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/2007_conference/vandergriff_2007_boyd_conference.ppt</a></p>
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		<title>By:  sonofsamphm1c </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17398</link>
		<dc:creator> sonofsamphm1c </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17398</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;So you&#039;re saying great teachers are sitting on their butts because they&#039;re not getting a big enough performance bonus?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The challenge NCLB can&#039;t overcome is what a gigantically stupid idea it was in the first place.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you&#39;re saying great teachers are sitting on their butts because they&#39;re not getting a big enough performance bonus?</p>
<p> The challenge NCLB can&#39;t overcome is what a gigantically stupid idea it was in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17399</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17399</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;sonofsamphm1c,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;So you&#039;re saying great teachers are sitting on their butts because they&#039;re not getting a big enough performance bonus?&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; No, the problem is much deeper than low pay or laziness.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The current system does not provide enough monetary or social rewards to attract enough of the teachers who are needed to make it work, and does not provide an HR system to keep and reward, monetarily or socially, those very high quality teachers who are in it.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;The challenge NCLB can&#039;t overcome is what a gigantically stupid idea it was in the first place.&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The NCLB and its broader agenda does not over come -- it does not &quot;take over.&quot;  It takes down.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonofsamphm1c,</p>
<p> &#8220;So you&#39;re saying great teachers are sitting on their butts because they&#39;re not getting a big enough performance bonus?&#8221;</p>
<p> No, the problem is much deeper than low pay or laziness.</p>
<p> The current system does not provide enough monetary or social rewards to attract enough of the teachers who are needed to make it work, and does not provide an HR system to keep and reward, monetarily or socially, those very high quality teachers who are in it.</p>
<p> &#8220;The challenge NCLB can&#39;t overcome is what a gigantically stupid idea it was in the first place.&#8221;</p>
<p> The NCLB and its broader agenda does not over come &#8212; it does not &#8220;take over.&#8221;  It takes down.</p>
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		<title>By:  Ay Uaxe </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17400</link>
		<dc:creator> Ay Uaxe </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17400</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;The key is complete disinvolvement of federal government in schools.  The federal ham-fisted, one size and one agenda fits all approach, in addition to its politicized social experimentation with children, is the epitome of failed policy.  Local control and the parental involvement control engenders is critical to success by any measure in schools.  If a neighborhood wanted to band together and have all schools in their &quot;district&quot; adopt a Montessori-type approach to education (just as an example, not a plug), under the present top-down bureaucracy, they couldn&#039;t do it.  Thus, there&#039;s no innovation, no motivation for involvement.  In NOLA and in many cities, that means there is a massive rejection of public schools and a cascade effect as virtually all motivated students, parents, teachers, and administrators not-so-gradually desert the public schools for private, parochial, home-schooling, and more recently, semi-private &quot;charter&quot; schools.  The public schools become (already are here) the absolute dregs.  NCLB has done nothing to address any of the problems and worse, offers nothing but more of the same abdication of responsibility and dependency upon federally dictated policy and funding.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key is complete disinvolvement of federal government in schools.  The federal ham-fisted, one size and one agenda fits all approach, in addition to its politicized social experimentation with children, is the epitome of failed policy.  Local control and the parental involvement control engenders is critical to success by any measure in schools.  If a neighborhood wanted to band together and have all schools in their &#8220;district&#8221; adopt a Montessori-type approach to education (just as an example, not a plug), under the present top-down bureaucracy, they couldn&#39;t do it.  Thus, there&#39;s no innovation, no motivation for involvement.  In NOLA and in many cities, that means there is a massive rejection of public schools and a cascade effect as virtually all motivated students, parents, teachers, and administrators not-so-gradually desert the public schools for private, parochial, home-schooling, and more recently, semi-private &#8220;charter&#8221; schools.  The public schools become (already are here) the absolute dregs.  NCLB has done nothing to address any of the problems and worse, offers nothing but more of the same abdication of responsibility and dependency upon federally dictated policy and funding.</p>
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		<title>By:  Isaac </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17401</link>
		<dc:creator> Isaac </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;My experience in San Diego was mixed, but it was easy to spot where the problems came from:  the two-year tenure system.  There were a few teachers at my High School who taught, quite literally, with Discovery Channel videos in their non-AP or honors classes.  Social promotion did the rest.  Tenured teachers can&#039;t be fired unless they&#039;re found to be &#039;absolutely incompetent&#039; in a court of law.  Ask any lawyer you know if they&#039;d like to try and prove that one!  Besides, most districts don&#039;t have the money to even dream of going to court.  So, unless a bad teacher is caught red-handed abusing a student or something, they can ride the gravy to retirement.  Most don&#039;t, but all have this de-motivating security blanket...  &lt;br /&gt; Another consequence of this pertains to new teachers.  A good friend of mine was bounced between 4 jobs in her first 4 years of teaching - once &#039;artificially&#039; at the same school - so as to be denied tenure.  She left the profession shortly thereafter.&lt;br /&gt; I&#039;m sure you all can extrapolate more from both bits above.  I&#039;ll end by saying that my high-school girlfriend&#039;s mom was a high school teacher.  Come election time, she always voted straight down the union ticket and wouldn&#039;t even discuss issues or candidates.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience in San Diego was mixed, but it was easy to spot where the problems came from:  the two-year tenure system.  There were a few teachers at my High School who taught, quite literally, with Discovery Channel videos in their non-AP or honors classes.  Social promotion did the rest.  Tenured teachers can&#39;t be fired unless they&#39;re found to be &#39;absolutely incompetent&#39; in a court of law.  Ask any lawyer you know if they&#39;d like to try and prove that one!  Besides, most districts don&#39;t have the money to even dream of going to court.  So, unless a bad teacher is caught red-handed abusing a student or something, they can ride the gravy to retirement.  Most don&#39;t, but all have this de-motivating security blanket&#8230;  <br /> Another consequence of this pertains to new teachers.  A good friend of mine was bounced between 4 jobs in her first 4 years of teaching &#8211; once &#39;artificially&#39; at the same school &#8211; so as to be denied tenure.  She left the profession shortly thereafter.<br /> I&#39;m sure you all can extrapolate more from both bits above.  I&#39;ll end by saying that my high-school girlfriend&#39;s mom was a high school teacher.  Come election time, she always voted straight down the union ticket and wouldn&#39;t even discuss issues or candidates.</p>
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		<title>By:  sonofsamphm1c </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17402</link>
		<dc:creator> sonofsamphm1c </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17402</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Explain why you think they&#039;ve failed. If you say average test scores, i already know you do not what you are talking about.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; What score is a kid with an IQ of 100 supposed to get?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; If you think the kids in a low performing school are going to blossom into doctors and lawyers and such if sent to Bluenose Academy, I got a bridge I need to sell.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Explain why you think they&#39;ve failed. If you say average test scores, i already know you do not what you are talking about.</p>
<p> What score is a kid with an IQ of 100 supposed to get?</p>
<p> If you think the kids in a low performing school are going to blossom into doctors and lawyers and such if sent to Bluenose Academy, I got a bridge I need to sell.</p>
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		<title>By:  Ay Uaxe </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-17403</link>
		<dc:creator> Ay Uaxe </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/18/us-public-schools-still-terrible-after-all-these-years.html#comment-17403</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;sonofsamphm1c:&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The assumptions of your last post simply don&#039;t speak to reality or the issues--kids with 100 IQs would generally need a whole different curriculum and school experience from &quot;average&quot; and &quot;above-average&quot; kids.  A central problem with public schools is that to ensure that &quot;no child is left behind&quot; curriculum and standards have been dumbed down to make sure those 100 IQ kids, who&#039;re lumped in with the rest, don&#039;t get left behind either.  Thus, the abysmal test scores and worse practical knowledge instruction across the board.  These days, practical discernment and sound judgment are deemed &quot;discrimination&quot; by federal bureaucrats.  That frame of mind prevailed during the Johnson administration, beginning the surprisingly steep slide of what lights there were in public education into darkness.  You are right in thinking that kids with 100 IQs are probably limited in what they can achieve academically, regardless of the environment, where you are wrong is in assuming that the vast majority of kids with higher IQs should have their educations limited to what the 100 IQs can handle.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonofsamphm1c:</p>
<p> The assumptions of your last post simply don&#39;t speak to reality or the issues&#8211;kids with 100 IQs would generally need a whole different curriculum and school experience from &#8220;average&#8221; and &#8220;above-average&#8221; kids.  A central problem with public schools is that to ensure that &#8220;no child is left behind&#8221; curriculum and standards have been dumbed down to make sure those 100 IQ kids, who&#39;re lumped in with the rest, don&#39;t get left behind either.  Thus, the abysmal test scores and worse practical knowledge instruction across the board.  These days, practical discernment and sound judgment are deemed &#8220;discrimination&#8221; by federal bureaucrats.  That frame of mind prevailed during the Johnson administration, beginning the surprisingly steep slide of what lights there were in public education into darkness.  You are right in thinking that kids with 100 IQs are probably limited in what they can achieve academically, regardless of the environment, where you are wrong is in assuming that the vast majority of kids with higher IQs should have their educations limited to what the 100 IQs can handle.</p>
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