Comments on: My opinion is fact, period: On rhetoric, waterboarding, and torture http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html High-minded, fanatically malthusian perspectives Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:18:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Eddie http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-237175 Eddie Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:02:51 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-237175 British media have copies of the threatening letter from the State Department from August 2008. http://www.watoday.com.au/world/letters-prove-us-warning-20090206-7zx8.html?page=-1 "Channel 4 revealed that a week later the State Department wrote again to the Foreign Office to make clear the consequences if British courts released the paperwork detailing allegations of torture by US and British intelligence services. "To the extent the UK proceedings are currently aimed at ensuring that the documents at issue will be before the convening authority before she makes her referral decision, this development further demonstrates the relief sought through these proceedings has been otherwise accomplished and no further action by the court is required," the letter said. "Ordering the disclosure of the US intelligence information now would have only the marginal effects of serious and lasting damage to the US-UK intelligence sharing relationship, and thus the national security of the UK …" British media have copies of the threatening letter from the State Department from August 2008.

http://www.watoday.com.au/world/letters-prove-us-warning-20090206-7zx8.html?page=-1

“Channel 4 revealed that a week later the State Department wrote again to the Foreign Office to make clear the consequences if British courts released the paperwork detailing allegations of torture by US and British intelligence services.

“To the extent the UK proceedings are currently aimed at ensuring that the documents at issue will be before the convening authority before she makes her referral decision, this development further demonstrates the relief sought through these proceedings has been otherwise accomplished and no further action by the court is required,” the letter said.

“Ordering the disclosure of the US intelligence information now would have only the marginal effects of serious and lasting damage to the US-UK intelligence sharing relationship, and thus the national security of the UK …”

]]> By: Eddie http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-236871 Eddie Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:33:14 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-236871 More detail here. Apparently the two British judges involved made mention of this in their judgment. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/04/AR2009020402999_pf.html "Two British High Court judges ruled against releasing documents describing the treatment of a British detainee at the Guantanamo Bay prison, but made clear their reluctance, saying that the United States had threatened to withhold intelligence cooperation with Britain if the information were made public." More detail here. Apparently the two British judges involved made mention of this in their judgment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/04/AR2009020402999_pf.html

“Two British High Court judges ruled against releasing documents describing the treatment of a British detainee at the Guantanamo Bay prison, but made clear their reluctance, saying that the United States had threatened to withhold intelligence cooperation with Britain if the information were made public.”

]]> By: Eddie http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-236700 Eddie Thu, 05 Feb 2009 00:17:02 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-236700 I will be most interested if this is true or not. Again, he does not have the scent of Craig Murray or Joseph Wilson about him, so I will take him with a bit more than a grain of salt. I will be most interested if this is true or not. Again, he does not have the scent of Craig Murray or Joseph Wilson about him, so I will take him with a bit more than a grain of salt.

]]> By: tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-236627 tdaxp Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:51:52 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-236627 Far be it from me to contradict myself, but political posturing right before an election doesn't seem any more or less substantial than the empty cannons the rhetoric we've heard for the last few years. So I don't know what's different about this time, or how it relates to something I may have said in the past. Far be it from me to contradict myself, but political posturing right before an election doesn’t seem any more or less substantial than the empty cannons the rhetoric we’ve heard for the last few years.

So I don’t know what’s different about this time, or how it relates to something I may have said in the past.

]]> By: Eddie http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-236624 Eddie Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:49:16 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-236624 Dan, I apologize for not remembering where you made, but do recall it from a point I claimed about our use of torture harming some of our relationships abroad in Europe (especially with counter-intelligence efforts and information sharing). You asked for me to show some proof and all I had at the time were a few lukewarm complaints from the Swedes, Germans and Spanish, plus the Italian prosecutor going after his own police chief and the CIA agents in absentia. Now, this is potentially more substantial. Maybe. Dan,
I apologize for not remembering where you made, but do recall it from a point I claimed about our use of torture harming some of our relationships abroad in Europe (especially with counter-intelligence efforts and information sharing).
You asked for me to show some proof and all I had at the time were a few lukewarm complaints from the Swedes, Germans and Spanish, plus the Italian prosecutor going after his own police chief and the CIA agents in absentia.
Now, this is potentially more substantial. Maybe.

]]> By: tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-236609 tdaxp Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:24:34 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-236609 Eddie, What comment of mine is yours in reference to? Eddie,

What comment of mine is yours in reference to?

]]> By: Eddie http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-236573 Eddie Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:17:03 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-236573 Dan, More than a year ago in reference to a discussion on torture, you mentioned wanting to see evidence of its use causing issues with our European allies. A recent brouhaha has erupted in Britain over an alleged American threat to withhold intelligence cooperation if a British court released its findings of an investigation into the torture claims of a British resident currently held @ Gitmo. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7870049.stm MP Davis (who is making this allegation) seems to be a fairly reasonable British Conservative who has of late been making a big deal about British civil liberties in the age of terror. I don't see him yet as a Craig Murray type so I will give his accusation for now a bit of credence. Dan,

More than a year ago in reference to a discussion on torture, you mentioned wanting to see evidence of its use causing issues with our European allies.

A recent brouhaha has erupted in Britain over an alleged American threat to withhold intelligence cooperation if a British court released its findings of an investigation into the torture claims of a British resident currently held @ Gitmo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7870049.stm

MP Davis (who is making this allegation) seems to be a fairly reasonable British Conservative who has of late been making a big deal about British civil liberties in the age of terror. I don’t see him yet as a Craig Murray type so I will give his accusation for now a bit of credence.

]]> By: Dan tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-18403 Dan tdaxp Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-18403 <p>Karl,<br /> <br /> Excellent questions! I think I agree with your answers!<br /> <br /> Also check out Eddie's questions [1], which he kindly guest-posted here.<br /> <br /> Ry,<br /> <br /> Excellent comment.<br /> <br /> Endre,<br /> <br /> Your first paragraph is an ad hominem attack.<br /> <br /> I agree with your second paragraph.<br /> <br /> Wrt your third paragraph, your confusion of "European elite opinion" with "the world" is sitll common in much of America, as well. Fortunately, such a conflation is becoming a thing of the past.<br /> <br /> I'm not sure what you are talking about in re: "bigger, better guns." I don't think you'll find many true-blue advocates of the Future Combat System here...<br /> <br /> Regarding your question to Mark, tales of torture will be generated whether torture is used or not. This has both negative ("the Americans are unjust") and positive ("the Americans are fearsome") consequences.<br /> <br /> Curtis,<br /> <br /> From the conclusion of Endre's post: [2]<br /> <br /> "Dudes - I come close to want you all to die horribly, knowing such facts. What the FUCK do you think those "crazy muslims" want?"<br /> <br /> The sympathy of many Europeans for Islamists is not just in the imagination of the netroots after all!<br /> <br /> [1] <a href="http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/30/10-questions-on-torture-guest-post-by-eddie-of-hidden-unitie.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/30/10-questions-on-torture-guest-post-by-eddie-of-hidden-unitie.html</a><br /> [2] <a href="http://blog.stolsvik.com/2007/10/proud-america-waterboard.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://blog.stolsvik.com/2007/10/proud-america-waterboard.html</a></p> Karl,

Excellent questions! I think I agree with your answers!

Also check out Eddie's questions [1], which he kindly guest-posted here.

Ry,

Excellent comment.

Endre,

Your first paragraph is an ad hominem attack.

I agree with your second paragraph.

Wrt your third paragraph, your confusion of “European elite opinion” with “the world” is sitll common in much of America, as well. Fortunately, such a conflation is becoming a thing of the past.

I'm not sure what you are talking about in re: “bigger, better guns.” I don't think you'll find many true-blue advocates of the Future Combat System here…

Regarding your question to Mark, tales of torture will be generated whether torture is used or not. This has both negative (“the Americans are unjust”) and positive (“the Americans are fearsome”) consequences.

Curtis,

From the conclusion of Endre's post: [2]

“Dudes – I come close to want you all to die horribly, knowing such facts. What the FUCK do you think those “crazy muslims” want?”

The sympathy of many Europeans for Islamists is not just in the imagination of the netroots after all!

[1] http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/30/10-questions-on-torture-guest-post-by-eddie-of-hidden-unitie.html
[2] http://blog.stolsvik.com/2007/10/proud-america-waterboard.html

]]> By: John http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-18404 John Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-18404 <p>I can understand the value of removing unwarranted emotion to resolve a difficult situation, but I have a hard time remaining neutral on torture. It's a pretty sick reminder of the state of things in America when the claims of an author to restore humanity and morality to the nightmare that is our foreign policy are derided on semantic grounds. Half of the comments I've seen here are talking about legal ways to get away with torture. If the author of this article cannot understand that by torturing people around the world, we lose any legitimate claim to object to similar treatment in the future, then perhaps he should stop fretting over the wording of Mr. Nance's plea for reason and address the ethical and moral bankruptcy inherent in even debating the legality of torture for any reason. To anyone here who is so keen on waterboarding that they'd allow any agency associated with the US to partake in it, I suggest filling your bathtub, lying down in it, and drowning yourself five or six times with a friend nearby to save you, and see how attractive and humane it seems once you have endured the pain and fear of death. For added realism, your waterboarding-buddy should lack all moral scruples and humanity, and should revel in your terror. Have fun.</p> I can understand the value of removing unwarranted emotion to resolve a difficult situation, but I have a hard time remaining neutral on torture. It's a pretty sick reminder of the state of things in America when the claims of an author to restore humanity and morality to the nightmare that is our foreign policy are derided on semantic grounds. Half of the comments I've seen here are talking about legal ways to get away with torture. If the author of this article cannot understand that by torturing people around the world, we lose any legitimate claim to object to similar treatment in the future, then perhaps he should stop fretting over the wording of Mr. Nance's plea for reason and address the ethical and moral bankruptcy inherent in even debating the legality of torture for any reason. To anyone here who is so keen on waterboarding that they'd allow any agency associated with the US to partake in it, I suggest filling your bathtub, lying down in it, and drowning yourself five or six times with a friend nearby to save you, and see how attractive and humane it seems once you have endured the pain and fear of death. For added realism, your waterboarding-buddy should lack all moral scruples and humanity, and should revel in your terror. Have fun.

]]> By: Curtis Gale Weeks http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html/comment-page-1#comment-18402 Curtis Gale Weeks Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/10/29/my-opinion-is-fact-period-on-rhetoric-waterboarding-and-torture.html#comment-18402 <p>How coincidental! (Re: FUCK) [1]<br /> <br /> But really, who can take seriously anyone who lumps all Americans together, viz., 'It is actually a sick kind of funny to see your intense belief in "bigger, better guns".' Some of us have argued against the high-tech faith system you deride. [2]<br /> <br /> <br /> [1] <a href="http://www.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/10/youtube_and_the.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/10/youtube_and_the.php</a><br /> <br /> [2] <a href="http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/05/hammes_on_5gw.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/05/hammes_on_5gw.php</a></p> How coincidental! (Re: FUCK) [1]

But really, who can take seriously anyone who lumps all Americans together, viz., 'It is actually a sick kind of funny to see your intense belief in “bigger, better guns”.' Some of us have argued against the high-tech faith system you deride. [2]

[1] http://www.phaticcommunion.com/archives/2007/10/youtube_and_the.php

[2] http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/05/hammes_on_5gw.php

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