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	<title>Comments on: Martyrdom in Colorado</title>
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	<description>All of us against the machine</description>
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		<title>By: J Smith </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18827</link>
		<dc:creator>J Smith </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;&quot;the toll in Sunday&#039;s shootings exceeded the combined total in all &quot;hate crimes&quot; against Muslims in the six years since September 11.&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Can you source that or are you just repeating a lie?&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the toll in Sunday&#39;s shootings exceeded the combined total in all &#8220;hate crimes&#8221; against Muslims in the six years since September 11.&#8221;</p>
<p> Can you source that or are you just repeating a lie?</p>
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		<title>By: J. Kauffman </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18825</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Kauffman </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;Then again, some consider racial profiling itself as a hate crime. I&#039;m sure that it is harder to live as an Arab, not necessarily a Muslim, than it is to live as a Christian in America.&lt;br /&gt; I&#039;m assuming no one will dispute that more Arabs and Muslims in America experience some forms discrimination or harm on levels that Christians in America don&#039;t come near to.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then again, some consider racial profiling itself as a hate crime. I&#39;m sure that it is harder to live as an Arab, not necessarily a Muslim, than it is to live as a Christian in America.<br /> I&#39;m assuming no one will dispute that more Arabs and Muslims in America experience some forms discrimination or harm on levels that Christians in America don&#39;t come near to.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18826</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html#comment-18826</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;&quot;Then again, some consider racial profiling itself as a hate crime. &quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Which would be a strange consideration.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Racial profiling, as the term is often used is a policing technique that tends to be effective but raises social policies concerns.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; As I wrote earlier, the &quot;best argument in favor of hate crimes legislations is that hate crimes laws are actually anti-terrorist laws.&quot; [1]&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;I&#039;m sure that it is harder to live as an Arab, not necessarily a Muslim, than it is to live as a Christian in America.&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Well, perhaps.  &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; On one side, &quot;Arab Americans better educated than most in U.S.,&quot; [2] have higher incomes, etc. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Then again, there are draw-backs, as well. Millions of Christians who are black, but no Muslims who are Arabs, benefit from racial affirmative action laws.  &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;I&#039;m assuming no one will dispute that more Arabs and Muslims in America experience some forms discrimination or harm on levels that Christians in America don&#039;t come near to.&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; On the face of it, obviously not.  There&#039;s something like 50-70x more Christians than Arabs-Muslims, so harm would have to be vanishingly rare for more Arabs and Muslims in to be harmed in absolute numbers.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/05/05/hate-crimes.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/05/05/hate-crimes.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; [2] &lt;a href=&quot;http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2005/03/09/News/Arab-Americans.Better.Educated.Than.Most.In.U.s-1429247.shtml&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2005/03/09/News/Arab-Americans.Better.Educated.Than.Most.In.U.s-1429247.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Then again, some consider racial profiling itself as a hate crime. &#8220;</p>
<p> Which would be a strange consideration.</p>
<p> Racial profiling, as the term is often used is a policing technique that tends to be effective but raises social policies concerns.</p>
<p> As I wrote earlier, the &#8220;best argument in favor of hate crimes legislations is that hate crimes laws are actually anti-terrorist laws.&#8221; [1]</p>
<p> &#8220;I&#39;m sure that it is harder to live as an Arab, not necessarily a Muslim, than it is to live as a Christian in America.&#8221;</p>
<p> Well, perhaps.  </p>
<p> On one side, &#8220;Arab Americans better educated than most in U.S.,&#8221; [2] have higher incomes, etc. </p>
<p> Then again, there are draw-backs, as well. Millions of Christians who are black, but no Muslims who are Arabs, benefit from racial affirmative action laws.  </p>
<p> &#8220;I&#39;m assuming no one will dispute that more Arabs and Muslims in America experience some forms discrimination or harm on levels that Christians in America don&#39;t come near to.&#8221;</p>
<p> On the face of it, obviously not.  There&#39;s something like 50-70x more Christians than Arabs-Muslims, so harm would have to be vanishingly rare for more Arabs and Muslims in to be harmed in absolute numbers.</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/05/05/hate-crimes.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/05/05/hate-crimes.html</a><br /> [2] <a href="http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2005/03/09/News/Arab-Americans.Better.Educated.Than.Most.In.U.s-1429247.shtml" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2005/03/09/News/Arab-Americans.Better.Educated.Than.Most.In.U.s-1429247.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Adam </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18823</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;Eh, my (undated) source lists 3 - 8 murders resulting from post-9/11 anti-Muslim hate crimes [1] and I found 3 more that the source doesn&#039;t mention. [2]&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; But the sort of tragedy that can result from hate and bigotry is heart-wrenching, no matter who the victims are.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; 1. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hanania.com/hatevictims.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.hanania.com/hatevictims.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; 2. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.alternet.org/story/17058/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.alternet.org/story/17058/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh, my (undated) source lists 3 &#8211; 8 murders resulting from post-9/11 anti-Muslim hate crimes [1] and I found 3 more that the source doesn&#39;t mention. [2]</p>
<p> But the sort of tragedy that can result from hate and bigotry is heart-wrenching, no matter who the victims are.</p>
<p> 1. <a href="http://www.hanania.com/hatevictims.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.hanania.com/hatevictims.html</a><br /> 2. <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story/17058/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.alternet.org/story/17058/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18824</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html#comment-18824</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;It&#039;s an interesting question whether Sikh victims are martyrs for Islam, or their faith, etc...  still, the broader point, and one that is a good one, is that &quot;hate crimes&quot; are in the fashion-conscious eyes of the beholder.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s an interesting question whether Sikh victims are martyrs for Islam, or their faith, etc&#8230;  still, the broader point, and one that is a good one, is that &#8220;hate crimes&#8221; are in the fashion-conscious eyes of the beholder.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18828</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html#comment-18828</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Hmm, reminds me of the recent Sarah Silverman episode where she engages in a debate over whether Jews or Blacks have it worse.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; As far as what Sikh victims should be classified as, its worth pointing out that I don&#039;t know if they&#039;ve confirmed the four victims were Christians.  Many non-Christians, such as myself, attend church, especially during the weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  If a visiting atheist or closet doubter was among the victims, would they be a martyr?&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, reminds me of the recent Sarah Silverman episode where she engages in a debate over whether Jews or Blacks have it worse.</p>
<p> As far as what Sikh victims should be classified as, its worth pointing out that I don&#39;t know if they&#39;ve confirmed the four victims were Christians.  Many non-Christians, such as myself, attend church, especially during the weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  If a visiting atheist or closet doubter was among the victims, would they be a martyr?</p>
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		<title>By: J Smith </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18829</link>
		<dc:creator>J Smith </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;I took over from Phocion.  I&#039;m using his email address because that&#039;s how the blogger account is set up.  Why&#039;s that so hard?&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I took over from Phocion.  I&#39;m using his email address because that&#39;s how the blogger account is set up.  Why&#39;s that so hard?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18830</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html#comment-18830</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;J Smith,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Congrats on taking over Amendment IX [1]!&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Not sure why you call the claim a lie.  &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; It is discussed in some detail over at the Powerline forum [2].  Considering the low level of hate-crime martyrdoms (see the 2006 data [3], for instance) plus those targeting Muslims have often hit Sikhs, the assertion is reasonable.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; If you claim it is a &quot;lie,&quot; then first demonstrate the data is wrong, and secondly demonstrate intent to deceive.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; (Of course, if you claim the data is merely wrong, you only need to demonstrate that.)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Adam,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;Hmm, reminds me of the recent Sarah Silverman episode where she engages in a debate over whether Jews or Blacks have it worse.&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; In terms of life at age 18, blacks, clearly.  A 1.5 standard deviation gap in general intelligence is a severe hardship, and nothing Jews currently put up with compares to it in terms of life limitations and troubles.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &quot;Many non-Christians, such as myself, attend church, especially during the weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas. If a visiting atheist or closet doubter was among the victims, would they be a martyr?&quot;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; At least from a policy perspective, it&#039;s probably good to recognize that martyrdom derives from witnessing.  It&#039;s a good analogy.  If an accuser accuses someone else, and &quot;closets&quot; the dependent&#039;s innocence, the accuser is still witnessing.  Witnessing something they don&#039;t believe, perhaps -- but that is there choice by using deception.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; So I would count such a &quot;closeted&quot; atheist as a martyr for Christianity, for the purpose of policy, but not an atheist who merely happened to be killed at the same time.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; (I&#039;ve deleted lol&#039;s comment, as it does not fall into the category of helpful dialog.)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://amendmentnine.blogspot.com/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://amendmentnine.blogspot.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; [2] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/26618/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/26618/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; [3] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table4.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table4.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J Smith,</p>
<p> Congrats on taking over Amendment IX [1]!</p>
<p> Not sure why you call the claim a lie.  </p>
<p> It is discussed in some detail over at the Powerline forum [2].  Considering the low level of hate-crime martyrdoms (see the 2006 data [3], for instance) plus those targeting Muslims have often hit Sikhs, the assertion is reasonable.</p>
<p> If you claim it is a &#8220;lie,&#8221; then first demonstrate the data is wrong, and secondly demonstrate intent to deceive.</p>
<p> (Of course, if you claim the data is merely wrong, you only need to demonstrate that.)</p>
<p> Adam,</p>
<p> &#8220;Hmm, reminds me of the recent Sarah Silverman episode where she engages in a debate over whether Jews or Blacks have it worse.&#8221;</p>
<p> In terms of life at age 18, blacks, clearly.  A 1.5 standard deviation gap in general intelligence is a severe hardship, and nothing Jews currently put up with compares to it in terms of life limitations and troubles.</p>
<p> &#8220;Many non-Christians, such as myself, attend church, especially during the weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas. If a visiting atheist or closet doubter was among the victims, would they be a martyr?&#8221;</p>
<p> At least from a policy perspective, it&#39;s probably good to recognize that martyrdom derives from witnessing.  It&#39;s a good analogy.  If an accuser accuses someone else, and &#8220;closets&#8221; the dependent&#39;s innocence, the accuser is still witnessing.  Witnessing something they don&#39;t believe, perhaps &#8212; but that is there choice by using deception.</p>
<p> So I would count such a &#8220;closeted&#8221; atheist as a martyr for Christianity, for the purpose of policy, but not an atheist who merely happened to be killed at the same time.</p>
<p> (I&#39;ve deleted lol&#39;s comment, as it does not fall into the category of helpful dialog.)</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://amendmentnine.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://amendmentnine.blogspot.com/</a><br /> [2] <a href="http://www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/26618/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/26618/</a><br /> [3] <a href="http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table4.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table4.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: J Smith </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18831</link>
		<dc:creator>J Smith </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> &lt;p&gt;It is a lie.  You know it now.  You have already one report which shows it is a lie.  And you continue to spread it.  You are choosing to spread it now.  That is dishonorable.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a lie.  You know it now.  You have already one report which shows it is a lie.  And you continue to spread it.  You are choosing to spread it now.  That is dishonorable.</p>
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		<title>By:  Michael </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html/comment-page-1#comment-18832</link>
		<dc:creator> Michael </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/11/martyrdom-in-colorado.html#comment-18832</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;You know, J, you COULD just present your own evidence. Imitating the very behavior you&#039;re criticising someone else for, in the same conversation as the behavior you&#039;re criticising, doesn&#039;t really accomplish much.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Ultimately, does it matter which group has been targeted by hate crimes in the US more? Dead is dead. All hate crimes are worthy of prosecution, regardless of the victims.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, J, you COULD just present your own evidence. Imitating the very behavior you&#39;re criticising someone else for, in the same conversation as the behavior you&#39;re criticising, doesn&#39;t really accomplish much.</p>
<p> Ultimately, does it matter which group has been targeted by hate crimes in the US more? Dead is dead. All hate crimes are worthy of prosecution, regardless of the victims.</p>
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