Comments on: Quality of Service and the Monopoly of Violence http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html All of us against the machine Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:18:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Dan tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18998 Dan tdaxp Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18998 <p>TDL & Dan McIntosh,<br /> <br /> "Both have made the assessment that the CPD is nothing more than a gang. I do not believe that is the reason they joined the CPD (or that most people join police forces,) but that is ultimate outcome when you ban competition (whether that is private police services or curtailing our rights to defend ourselves that is enshrined in the 2nd Amendment.)"<br /> <br /> "LOL. I guess the tiger always looks more dangerous when its coming for *you*"<br /> <br /> These two quotes are really getting at the same thing: the other guy loves himself, his family, and his job more than he loves you. Pretending that police are above this denies their humanity, and is a recipe for abuse.</p> TDL & Dan McIntosh,

“Both have made the assessment that the CPD is nothing more than a gang. I do not believe that is the reason they joined the CPD (or that most people join police forces,) but that is ultimate outcome when you ban competition (whether that is private police services or curtailing our rights to defend ourselves that is enshrined in the 2nd Amendment.)”

“LOL. I guess the tiger always looks more dangerous when its coming for *you*”

These two quotes are really getting at the same thing: the other guy loves himself, his family, and his job more than he loves you. Pretending that police are above this denies their humanity, and is a recipe for abuse.

]]> By: TDL http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18999 TDL Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18999 <p>Dan,<br /> You are absolutely correct. I think there are the issues of incentives, risks, and training that are not clearly delineated. Police officers are trained to fire at the silhouettes of human bodies. Police officers are also trained to shoot at the body of a human (not the legs or head or the tire of a car like we often see in movies.) Realistically, the boots on the ground may not have had the adequate training to use force appropriately until the absolute threat of losing their lives forced them to make an emotional decision. Your assessment of them loving their lives, family, and job more than "you" is still accurate, but other issues are at play here as well. Without fully understanding the way the scenario was playing out we can not fully understand what the officers were thinking (hell for all we now they may have been moving closer to draw the tigers attention so she would not be so close to the person she was attacking; I don't think any of these guys wanted to be on the wrong side of a wrongful death suit.)<br /> <br /> Regards,<br /> TDL<br /> <br /> P.S. Happy New Year</p> Dan,
You are absolutely correct. I think there are the issues of incentives, risks, and training that are not clearly delineated. Police officers are trained to fire at the silhouettes of human bodies. Police officers are also trained to shoot at the body of a human (not the legs or head or the tire of a car like we often see in movies.) Realistically, the boots on the ground may not have had the adequate training to use force appropriately until the absolute threat of losing their lives forced them to make an emotional decision. Your assessment of them loving their lives, family, and job more than “you” is still accurate, but other issues are at play here as well. Without fully understanding the way the scenario was playing out we can not fully understand what the officers were thinking (hell for all we now they may have been moving closer to draw the tigers attention so she would not be so close to the person she was attacking; I don't think any of these guys wanted to be on the wrong side of a wrongful death suit.)

Regards,
TDL

P.S. Happy New Year

]]> By: Jay@Soob http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-19000 Jay@Soob Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-19000 <p>"I also second the need for liberalizing (i.e. decriminalizing) drug laws, it would dramatically decrease the incentives to use violence to gain market share."<br /> <br /> Additionally consider the global aspect of this. As Steve French commented [1] our drug laws "...make being in the gap pay."<br /> <br /> [1]<a href="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=37179942&postID=5067777798501221052&pli=1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=37179942&postID=5067777798501221052&pli=1</a></p> “I also second the need for liberalizing (i.e. decriminalizing) drug laws, it would dramatically decrease the incentives to use violence to gain market share.”

Additionally consider the global aspect of this. As Steve French commented [1] our drug laws “…make being in the gap pay.”

[1]https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=37179942&postID=5067777798501221052&pli=1

]]> By: Jay@Soob http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18995 Jay@Soob Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18995 <p>"Soob, I thought you'd put the Tiger to the sword."<br /> <br /> Nah. That's so 13th century...</p> “Soob, I thought you'd put the Tiger to the sword.”

Nah. That's so 13th century…

]]> By: TDL http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18996 TDL Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18996 <p>Dan,<br /> Good post. Hailing from Chicago (the city itself, not a 'burb) I couldn't agree more. I have a friend and an acquaintance that are cops w/ the CPD. Both have made the assessment that the CPD is nothing more than a gang. I do not believe that is the reason they joined the CPD (or that most people join police forces,) but that is ultimate outcome when you ban competition (whether that is private police services or curtailing our rights to defend ourselves that is enshrined in the 2nd Amendment.) I also second the need for liberalizing (i.e. decriminalizing) drug laws, it would dramatically decrease the incentives to use violence to gain market share.<br /> <br /> Regards,<br /> TDL</p> Dan,
Good post. Hailing from Chicago (the city itself, not a 'burb) I couldn't agree more. I have a friend and an acquaintance that are cops w/ the CPD. Both have made the assessment that the CPD is nothing more than a gang. I do not believe that is the reason they joined the CPD (or that most people join police forces,) but that is ultimate outcome when you ban competition (whether that is private police services or curtailing our rights to defend ourselves that is enshrined in the 2nd Amendment.) I also second the need for liberalizing (i.e. decriminalizing) drug laws, it would dramatically decrease the incentives to use violence to gain market share.

Regards,
TDL

]]> By: Dan McIntosh http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18997 Dan McIntosh Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18997 <p>LOL. I guess the tiger always looks more dangerous when its coming for *you*. But then, I always get a chuckle from the "to serve and protect" on the side of cop cars.</p> LOL. I guess the tiger always looks more dangerous when its coming for *you*. But then, I always get a chuckle from the “to serve and protect” on the side of cop cars.

]]> By: J. Kauffman http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18993 J. Kauffman Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18993 <p>I haven't done any research on this. So I suppose my comment is more of a question.<br /> <br /> Aren't the neighborhoods with the highest gun per household rate in crime ridden poverty infested areas? If that's the case then gun ownership certainly doesn't deter criminals.</p> I haven't done any research on this. So I suppose my comment is more of a question.

Aren't the neighborhoods with the highest gun per household rate in crime ridden poverty infested areas? If that's the case then gun ownership certainly doesn't deter criminals.

]]> By: Dan tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18994 Dan tdaxp Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18994 <p>Jay,<br /> <br /> Agreed on the film.<br /> <br /> An interesting twist on the analysis is the possibility that Canadians and Americans are not just “twins” of each other, but the major differences in migration patterns (going back all the way to the informal cleansing of the loyalists following the Revolution) may have created populations with different biologically-driven propensities.<br /> <br /> So perhaps we are not more or less mature. Just different.<br /> <br /> Steve & Jay,<br /> <br /> Thanks for the article, and the link!<br /> <br /> A.E.,<br /> <br /> :-)<br /> <br /> Swords, however, do not negate individual strength and training to the extent that guns do, which makes them a less “democratic” (to still a nonsense leftist interpretation of that word) than guns.<br /> <br /> J,<br /> <br /> If I recall correctly, a negative correlation (less guns, more crime) has been shown, but that research was criticized on methodological grounds as overweighting rural areas. I’m unfamiliar with the current status of a look to a statistical link.<br /> <br /> Any such link will be problematic, of course, because higher crime will induce the purchase of guns, as a safety measure. (Similar to the presence of pit bulls.)<br /> <br /> In terms of modeling, banning guns has a good effect of making the black market for such weaponry even risker while completely removing it as a self-defense and community-defense mechanism. Of course, simply liberalizing our drug laws may have the same good consequences as without the bad one. [2]<br /> <br /> PS: Unbeknownst to me, Eddie posted on this subject first. [3] Great minds think alike!<br /> <br /> [1] <a href="http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636</a><br /> [2] <a href="http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=10259217" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=10259217</a><br /> [3] <a href="http://hiddenunities.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/the-year-that-was-gun-violence/#comment-3663" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://hiddenunities.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/the-year-that-was-gun-violence/#comment-3663</a></p> Jay,

Agreed on the film.

An interesting twist on the analysis is the possibility that Canadians and Americans are not just “twins” of each other, but the major differences in migration patterns (going back all the way to the informal cleansing of the loyalists following the Revolution) may have created populations with different biologically-driven propensities.

So perhaps we are not more or less mature. Just different.

Steve & Jay,

Thanks for the article, and the link!

A.E.,

:-)

Swords, however, do not negate individual strength and training to the extent that guns do, which makes them a less “democratic” (to still a nonsense leftist interpretation of that word) than guns.

J,

If I recall correctly, a negative correlation (less guns, more crime) has been shown, but that research was criticized on methodological grounds as overweighting rural areas. I’m unfamiliar with the current status of a look to a statistical link.

Any such link will be problematic, of course, because higher crime will induce the purchase of guns, as a safety measure. (Similar to the presence of pit bulls.)

In terms of modeling, banning guns has a good effect of making the black market for such weaponry even risker while completely removing it as a self-defense and community-defense mechanism. Of course, simply liberalizing our drug laws may have the same good consequences as without the bad one. [2]

PS: Unbeknownst to me, Eddie posted on this subject first. [3] Great minds think alike!

[1] http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636
[2] http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=10259217
[3] http://hiddenunities.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/the-year-that-was-gun-violence/#comment-3663

]]> By: Michael http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18986 Michael Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18986 <p>"either because they are too poor, or because the police administration of their neighborhood is run by leftists" How do you know it's always leftists? I can easily imagine a right-wing police dept choosing not to do its duty towards neighborhoods filled with people they dislike (immigrants, racial minorities, hippies. . .). <br /> <br /> Ironic thing about the weapons debate is, the methods always proposed for using weapons rights to protect people aren't the best ones out there. Imagine you're a burglar, which city would you rather operate in?<br /> <br /> The American one with concealed weapons allowed, such that every house COULD have a person armed with SOMETHING in it?<br /> <br /> Or the Swiss or Israeli one where every house DOES have an armed person in it, usually with an automatic and the training to use it properly!<br /> <br /> If you live with and accept certain kinds of risk every day, it's going to take a serious increase in the risk-level (or a new type of risk) to really get your attention.</p> “either because they are too poor, or because the police administration of their neighborhood is run by leftists” How do you know it's always leftists? I can easily imagine a right-wing police dept choosing not to do its duty towards neighborhoods filled with people they dislike (immigrants, racial minorities, hippies. . .).

Ironic thing about the weapons debate is, the methods always proposed for using weapons rights to protect people aren't the best ones out there. Imagine you're a burglar, which city would you rather operate in?

The American one with concealed weapons allowed, such that every house COULD have a person armed with SOMETHING in it?

Or the Swiss or Israeli one where every house DOES have an armed person in it, usually with an automatic and the training to use it properly!

If you live with and accept certain kinds of risk every day, it's going to take a serious increase in the risk-level (or a new type of risk) to really get your attention.

]]> By: A.E. http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html/comment-page-1#comment-18992 A.E. Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/12/28/quality-of-service-and-the-monopoly-of-violence.html#comment-18992 <p>"That aside, I'm quite satisfied to live in a state that enjoys one of the lowest crime rates nationally despite maintaining the most lax gun laws. Tigers beware!"<br /> <br /> Soob, I thought you'd put the Tiger to the sword.</p> “That aside, I'm quite satisfied to live in a state that enjoys one of the lowest crime rates nationally despite maintaining the most lax gun laws. Tigers beware!”

Soob, I thought you'd put the Tiger to the sword.

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