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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread XII</title>
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	<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html</link>
	<description>All of us against the machine</description>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19496</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19496</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Michael,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Israel and Syria worked effectively to expel the PLO from Beirut, so a successful operation is possible, though Hamas is more deeply integrated into Gaza than the PLO ever was in Lebanon.  So my guess is that Hamas and the Brotherhood would welcome the chance to bloody Egypt, while Egypt bloodies Palestinian civilians.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; PS: Like the Favor Factory!  I&#039;m pretty happy with the spending that Senators Johnson and Thune got for my state, so I can&#039;t complain about earmarks :-)&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p> Israel and Syria worked effectively to expel the PLO from Beirut, so a successful operation is possible, though Hamas is more deeply integrated into Gaza than the PLO ever was in Lebanon.  So my guess is that Hamas and the Brotherhood would welcome the chance to bloody Egypt, while Egypt bloodies Palestinian civilians.</p>
<p> PS: Like the Favor Factory!  I&#39;m pretty happy with the spending that Senators Johnson and Thune got for my state, so I can&#39;t complain about earmarks <img src='http://www.tdaxp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: PurpleSlog </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19497</link>
		<dc:creator>PurpleSlog </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19497</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;FYI:The TDAXP rss feed is readable again by MyYahoo.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI:The TDAXP rss feed is readable again by MyYahoo.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19498</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19498</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;PurpleSlog,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Great!&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; One thing I&#039;ve learned in this latest saga with blogspirit support is that blogspirit quietly updates the blog software every week or so (without a public changelog) - so probably it was a known issue that they quietly acknowledged and quietly fixed.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Crummy service, but at least that one problem is behind us.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PurpleSlog,</p>
<p> Great!</p>
<p> One thing I&#39;ve learned in this latest saga with blogspirit support is that blogspirit quietly updates the blog software every week or so (without a public changelog) &#8211; so probably it was a known issue that they quietly acknowledged and quietly fixed.</p>
<p> Crummy service, but at least that one problem is behind us.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19499</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19499</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;BBC article touches on a subject we&#039;ve debated before.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7227629.stm&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7227629.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; I recognize the potential trouble with monks, nuns and priests not taking their vows seriously, but that&#039;s already a problem. If the Catholic Church is going to enforce its standards of conduct more strictly while simultaneously avoiding demographic extinction and maintaining its rules about women in the clergy and marriage by clergy and monastics, SOMETHING has to give. Cutting deals to ensure a free hand in China and other places with excess males may be one. Aggressive marketing of these callings as an option for older adults may be another.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BBC article touches on a subject we&#39;ve debated before.</p>
<p> <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7227629.stm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7227629.stm</a></p>
<p> I recognize the potential trouble with monks, nuns and priests not taking their vows seriously, but that&#39;s already a problem. If the Catholic Church is going to enforce its standards of conduct more strictly while simultaneously avoiding demographic extinction and maintaining its rules about women in the clergy and marriage by clergy and monastics, SOMETHING has to give. Cutting deals to ensure a free hand in China and other places with excess males may be one. Aggressive marketing of these callings as an option for older adults may be another.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19500</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19500</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Michael,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Thanks for the link.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Note the fall is for monks and nuns, as opposed to adherents.  Historically, religions that place more demands on people rise while those that place less fall. (Hence the rise of Christianity [1], Scientology, mormonism, etc, and the collapse of Mainline Protestantism over the last two generations in the United States.)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The Catholic Church has a history of working with authoritarian regimes, from Royal France to Communist Vietnam.  While the Church has historically been willing to grant governments veto-power over Bishop appointments, Rome&#039;s insistence that it is the head of any Church in communion with it seems to be Beijing&#039;s problem.  (As well as the practical results of this -- for instance, consistent opposition to abortion in a country with a One Child Policy, etc.)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/23/review-of-the-rise-of-christianity-by-rodney-stark.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/23/review-of-the-rise-of-christianity-by-rodney-stark.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p> Thanks for the link.</p>
<p> Note the fall is for monks and nuns, as opposed to adherents.  Historically, religions that place more demands on people rise while those that place less fall. (Hence the rise of Christianity [1], Scientology, mormonism, etc, and the collapse of Mainline Protestantism over the last two generations in the United States.)</p>
<p> The Catholic Church has a history of working with authoritarian regimes, from Royal France to Communist Vietnam.  While the Church has historically been willing to grant governments veto-power over Bishop appointments, Rome&#39;s insistence that it is the head of any Church in communion with it seems to be Beijing&#39;s problem.  (As well as the practical results of this &#8212; for instance, consistent opposition to abortion in a country with a One Child Policy, etc.)</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/23/review-of-the-rise-of-christianity-by-rodney-stark.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2007/07/23/review-of-the-rise-of-christianity-by-rodney-stark.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19502</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19502</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Michael,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Could you rephrase the first part of your comment?  I&#039;m not sure what you mean  (Certainly not that the Vatican &quot;would really want to&quot; have Communion with a church that denies Roman supremacy -- there&#039;s 2,000 years of history on that subject!)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Re: the second, also reminds me of claims of ethnic discrimination against those Britons who do not speak English in the London manner [1]...&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; [1] &lt;a href=&quot;http://kotaku.com/352555/bbc-program-terribly-upset-with-brain-training&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://kotaku.com/352555/bbc-program-terribly-upset-with-brain-training&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p> Could you rephrase the first part of your comment?  I&#39;m not sure what you mean  (Certainly not that the Vatican &#8220;would really want to&#8221; have Communion with a church that denies Roman supremacy &#8212; there&#39;s 2,000 years of history on that subject!)</p>
<p> Re: the second, also reminds me of claims of ethnic discrimination against those Britons who do not speak English in the London manner [1]&#8230;</p>
<p> [1] <a href="http://kotaku.com/352555/bbc-program-terribly-upset-with-brain-training" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://kotaku.com/352555/bbc-program-terribly-upset-with-brain-training</a></p>
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		<title>By:  Michael </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19501</link>
		<dc:creator> Michael </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19501</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;I don&#039;t know that those are impossible barriers to surmount if the Vatican really wants to. It already has to deal with parishioners who&#039;re unable to have large families for economic reasons (the US comes to mind here), so that wouldn&#039;t be anything new. And offering to pay for the exiles of activist clergy, monastics and parishioners allows the government some degree of control over church activities.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; On another topic:&lt;br /&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3308666.ece&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3308666.ece&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Seems like frivolous fluff (not that there&#039;s anything wrong with that)-- until you start thinking about the UK&#039;s devolution in recent years and ask yourself where regional parliaments in England might be placed. If music is the key to a person&#039;s soul, then demographic studies like this might be useful to understanding nations.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t know that those are impossible barriers to surmount if the Vatican really wants to. It already has to deal with parishioners who&#39;re unable to have large families for economic reasons (the US comes to mind here), so that wouldn&#39;t be anything new. And offering to pay for the exiles of activist clergy, monastics and parishioners allows the government some degree of control over church activities.</p>
<p> On another topic:<br /> <a href="http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3308666.ece" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3308666.ece</a><br /> Seems like frivolous fluff (not that there&#39;s anything wrong with that)&#8211; until you start thinking about the UK&#39;s devolution in recent years and ask yourself where regional parliaments in England might be placed. If music is the key to a person&#39;s soul, then demographic studies like this might be useful to understanding nations.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan tdaxp </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19493</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan tdaxp </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19493</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Michael,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The Arab states&#039; disasterous performance in wars make it unlikely that an offensive operation would go well -- an incompetent, corrupt, peacetime Egyptian army without local knowledge would probably do even worse than Fatah&#039;s motivated, corrupt (in the sense of tied into local powerbrokers), wartime, local force did.  The solution would be more violence, which means more dead civilians, etc.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The Muslim Brothers are already organized in Egypt -- they contested the (fixed) parliamentary elections.  A Cairo government politically weakened by a Gaza campaign either has to concede more domestically to the Brotherhood, or risk violence it is unprepared to deal with.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The Brotherood skews upward in education, intelligence, and social mobility viz. the general Egyptian population.  I do not know how many people &quot;hate Mubarrak out of general principles,&quot; but I imagine a far greater fraction of Egypt&#039;s population despises him for his corrupt incompetence.  The fact that retreat would make the government look weak to everyone limits Cairo&#039;s room for maneuver, complicating the situation.&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p> The Arab states&#39; disasterous performance in wars make it unlikely that an offensive operation would go well &#8212; an incompetent, corrupt, peacetime Egyptian army without local knowledge would probably do even worse than Fatah&#39;s motivated, corrupt (in the sense of tied into local powerbrokers), wartime, local force did.  The solution would be more violence, which means more dead civilians, etc.</p>
<p> The Muslim Brothers are already organized in Egypt &#8212; they contested the (fixed) parliamentary elections.  A Cairo government politically weakened by a Gaza campaign either has to concede more domestically to the Brotherhood, or risk violence it is unprepared to deal with.</p>
<p> The Brotherood skews upward in education, intelligence, and social mobility viz. the general Egyptian population.  I do not know how many people &#8220;hate Mubarrak out of general principles,&#8221; but I imagine a far greater fraction of Egypt&#39;s population despises him for his corrupt incompetence.  The fact that retreat would make the government look weak to everyone limits Cairo&#39;s room for maneuver, complicating the situation.</p>
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		<title>By:  Michael </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19495</link>
		<dc:creator> Michael </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19495</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;Good point on the Egyptian&#039;s weaknesses in an invasion. They would pretty well have to make themselves junior partners to Israeli forces to make it work-- something that would not go over well with their people. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; The comment about hating Mubarrak on general principles was me getting lazy rhetorically-- the point being that the only people who would hate him for being successful in opening trade and stopping the rocket attacks (the best option, it seems) would be those who already hate him past the point of reason (i.e. the reasons you gave above) or who would actively benefit from the current situation.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; BTW, Jackpot!&lt;br /&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/favorfactory/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/favorfactory/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point on the Egyptian&#39;s weaknesses in an invasion. They would pretty well have to make themselves junior partners to Israeli forces to make it work&#8211; something that would not go over well with their people. </p>
<p> The comment about hating Mubarrak on general principles was me getting lazy rhetorically&#8211; the point being that the only people who would hate him for being successful in opening trade and stopping the rocket attacks (the best option, it seems) would be those who already hate him past the point of reason (i.e. the reasons you gave above) or who would actively benefit from the current situation.</p>
<p> BTW, Jackpot!<br /> <a href="http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/favorfactory/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/favorfactory/</a></p>
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		<title>By:  Michael </title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html/comment-page-1#comment-19494</link>
		<dc:creator> Michael </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/01/22/open-thread-xii.html#comment-19494</guid>
		<description> &lt;p&gt;An article from my hometown newspaper. Points out an interesting contrast between Hillary and McCain and hints at where to get more information.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chieftain.com/editorial/1201484522/5&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.chieftain.com/editorial/1201484522/5&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; So is that partisan enough to offend Zen, or should I follow up with a mindless rant or two?&lt;/p&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An article from my hometown newspaper. Points out an interesting contrast between Hillary and McCain and hints at where to get more information.</p>
<p> <a href="http://www.chieftain.com/editorial/1201484522/5" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.chieftain.com/editorial/1201484522/5</a></p>
<p> So is that partisan enough to offend Zen, or should I follow up with a mindless rant or two?</p>
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