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	<title>Comments on: R and Deep UX</title>
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	<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html</link>
	<description>All of us against the machine</description>
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		<title>By: tdaxp</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html/comment-page-1#comment-216673</link>
		<dc:creator>tdaxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=6703#comment-216673</guid>
		<description>Mark in Texas,

&lt;blockquote&gt;It worked for Microsoft. Why mess with a winning strategy?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because Microsoft is going to be doing the same thing, but better, as part of the ongoing roll-out of Microsoft Business Intelligence. [1]

Picking a symmetrical fight against Microsoft is mad-crazy.

[1] http://www.microsoft.com/bi/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark in Texas,</p>
<blockquote><p>It worked for Microsoft. Why mess with a winning strategy?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because Microsoft is going to be doing the same thing, but better, as part of the ongoing roll-out of Microsoft Business Intelligence. [1]</p>
<p>Picking a symmetrical fight against Microsoft is mad-crazy.</p>
<p>[1] <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/bi/" rel="nofollow">http://www.microsoft.com/bi/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark in Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html/comment-page-1#comment-216631</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark in Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=6703#comment-216631</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;SAS’s apparently strategy, of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt, is distressing.&lt;/i&gt;

It worked for Microsoft.  Why mess with a winning strategy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>SAS’s apparently strategy, of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt, is distressing.</i></p>
<p>It worked for Microsoft.  Why mess with a winning strategy?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tdaxp</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html/comment-page-1#comment-215945</link>
		<dc:creator>tdaxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=6703#comment-215945</guid>
		<description>Steve,

Thank you for commenting, but here and at other blogs.  It is refreshing to see that SAS is paying attention to blogs!

From Anne Milley&#039;s blog:

&lt;blockquote&gt;My remark reflects a key difference between R and SAS, that of support, reliability, and validation. Customers value SAS for many things, including our extensive testing, documentation, 24/7 support, and training. In contrast, the quality of proliferating R packages is varied and uneven, especially in complex analytical modules. Mistakes in these packages can lead to misleading results, even for experienced users.&lt;/blockquote.

This is actually the problem. 

I have less confidence in SAS code than in R code.  As I mentioned above, R exposes the matrix algebra that underlies statistics.  There are journal articles dedicated to mathematically proving this- and that- portion of the R program.  When I encounter a descripancy between SAS and R output (as happened to me recently), users are able to compare the mathematics R uses to those in published textbooks, and see where the problem is.  (In our case, R code was correct.  SAS&#039;s output was anonymous, and because SAS is &quot;closed source,&quot; we have no idea why.)

Certainly, there are those who recognize &quot;SAS&quot; and &quot;SPSS&quot; as name-brand software, and trust output from those over R (where one might resort to going through the code and seeing why it is outputting what it is).  I think this is the reason that, in general, SAS and SPSS are used in &quot;softer&quot; fields.  The more mathematically-focused a statistician, in my experience, the more likely he is to use R.

Anne&#039;s comment:

&lt;blockquote&gt;First, SAS and I applaud the innovative contributions and passion of the R community, and users who apply R to solve problems. In a very real sense, we are grateful for R, as it provides a freely available venue for bleeding-edge and experimental data analysis methods, and underscores the increasing importance of advanced analytical and graphical methods in this age of massive data volumes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

strikes me as deceptive.  The issue is not &#039;bleeding edge&#039; or &#039;experimental&#039; data analysis -- the issue is correct data analysis.  Both SAS and R have modules available from third-parties, and both include a core package.  

SAS&#039;s apparently strategy, of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt, is distressing.

In closing, I need to thank overdetermined [1], who pointed out me that SPSS now features optional integration with R.  [2]  Will SAS be doing the same soon?

[1] http://overdetermined.net/site/content/new-york-times-article-r
[2] http://www.spss.com/be/spss16/whats_new_base.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Thank you for commenting, but here and at other blogs.  It is refreshing to see that SAS is paying attention to blogs!</p>
<p>From Anne Milley&#8217;s blog:</p>
<blockquote><p>My remark reflects a key difference between R and SAS, that of support, reliability, and validation. Customers value SAS for many things, including our extensive testing, documentation, 24/7 support, and training. In contrast, the quality of proliferating R packages is varied and uneven, especially in complex analytical modules. Mistakes in these packages can lead to misleading results, even for experienced users.</p></blockquote>
<p>First, SAS and I applaud the innovative contributions and passion of the R community, and users who apply R to solve problems. In a very real sense, we are grateful for R, as it provides a freely available venue for bleeding-edge and experimental data analysis methods, and underscores the increasing importance of advanced analytical and graphical methods in this age of massive data volumes.</p>
<p>strikes me as deceptive.  The issue is not &#8216;bleeding edge&#8217; or &#8216;experimental&#8217; data analysis &#8212; the issue is correct data analysis.  Both SAS and R have modules available from third-parties, and both include a core package.  </p>
<p>SAS&#8217;s apparently strategy, of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt, is distressing.</p>
<p>In closing, I need to thank overdetermined [1], who pointed out me that SPSS now features optional integration with R.  [2]  Will SAS be doing the same soon?</p>
<p>[1] <a href="http://overdetermined.net/site/content/new-york-times-article-r" rel="nofollow">http://overdetermined.net/site/content/new-york-times-article-r</a><br />
[2] <a href="http://www.spss.com/be/spss16/whats_new_base.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.spss.com/be/spss16/whats_new_base.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve Polilli</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html/comment-page-1#comment-215909</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Polilli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=6703#comment-215909</guid>
		<description>As a SAS marketer I surely have a bias, but we really aren&#039;t in denial about R and open source. A fuller statement on R is available from Anne Milley who was quoted in the Times article. The statement is at http://blogs.sas.com/sascom/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a SAS marketer I surely have a bias, but we really aren&#8217;t in denial about R and open source. A fuller statement on R is available from Anne Milley who was quoted in the Times article. The statement is at <a href="http://blogs.sas.com/sascom/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.sas.com/sascom/</a></p>
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		<title>By: tdaxp</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html/comment-page-1#comment-214456</link>
		<dc:creator>tdaxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=6703#comment-214456</guid>
		<description>Seerov,

Well said!

The SAS representative may want to inquire about how HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, etc, market share is doing against Linux.

Searching the Harvard Business School website:

Excel: 1930 results [1]
SAS: 624 results [2]
SPSS: 2 results [3]
&quot;R Project&quot;: 0 results [4]

I have heard that SAS has a real advantage over R when it comes to very large data sets (something like more than a million observations).  Certainly for projects that run into those considerations, it may be best ot use SAS or another proprietary piece of software.  

However, considering the money SAS and SPSS get from college license fees, where students don&#039;t do much more than regression, ANOVA, etc, I can&#039;t see why the school would pay license fees for about $100/student/year (or force the students to do likewise) when the full R suite is available for free.  Considering that most programs in the social sciences force every student to learn and use statistics, 

At my university, the pure statistics program has completely moved to R, because R exposes the underlying matrix algebra that powers most of statistics.  The applied stats program is beginning to move in that direction.

Even the infamous &quot;Value at Risk&quot; equation is available in R [5], for those financial wizards out there! ;-)

[1] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;q=excel+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu
[2] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;q=sas+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu
[3] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;q=spss+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu
[4] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;q=&quot;r+project&quot;+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu
[5] http://braverock.com/brian/R/PerformanceAnalytics/html/VaR.CornishFisher.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seerov,</p>
<p>Well said!</p>
<p>The SAS representative may want to inquire about how HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, etc, market share is doing against Linux.</p>
<p>Searching the Harvard Business School website:</p>
<p>Excel: 1930 results [1]<br />
SAS: 624 results [2]<br />
SPSS: 2 results [3]<br />
&#8220;R Project&#8221;: 0 results [4]</p>
<p>I have heard that SAS has a real advantage over R when it comes to very large data sets (something like more than a million observations).  Certainly for projects that run into those considerations, it may be best ot use SAS or another proprietary piece of software.  </p>
<p>However, considering the money SAS and SPSS get from college license fees, where students don&#8217;t do much more than regression, ANOVA, etc, I can&#8217;t see why the school would pay license fees for about $100/student/year (or force the students to do likewise) when the full R suite is available for free.  Considering that most programs in the social sciences force every student to learn and use statistics, </p>
<p>At my university, the pure statistics program has completely moved to R, because R exposes the underlying matrix algebra that powers most of statistics.  The applied stats program is beginning to move in that direction.</p>
<p>Even the infamous &#8220;Value at Risk&#8221; equation is available in R [5], for those financial wizards out there! <img src='http://www.tdaxp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>[1] <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=excel+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=excel+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu</a><br />
[2] <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=sas+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=sas+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu</a><br />
[3] <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=spss+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=spss+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu</a><br />
[4] <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=</a>&#8220;r+project&#8221;+site%3Ahbsp.harvard.edu<br />
[5] <a href="http://braverock.com/brian/R/PerformanceAnalytics/html/VaR.CornishFisher.html" rel="nofollow">http://braverock.com/brian/R/PerformanceAnalytics/html/VaR.CornishFisher.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: josephfouche</title>
		<link>http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/01/07/r-and-deep-ux.html/comment-page-1#comment-213910</link>
		<dc:creator>josephfouche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=6703#comment-213910</guid>
		<description>&gt; The response from a SAS representative reminds me of what
&gt; Unix vendors must have thought when the first learned about 
&gt; Linux.

I had the same eerie version of deja vu. It reminded me of what Michael Jordan used to say: &quot;get out of my way and into my poster&quot;. SAS must have missed out on the last decade even though Red Hat&#039;s just down the street.

Makes you wonder what would happen if they taught R to MBAs. They&#039;d probably produce a financial crisis that would dwarf the current one. R may be a threat to future financial stability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; The response from a SAS representative reminds me of what<br />
&gt; Unix vendors must have thought when the first learned about<br />
&gt; Linux.</p>
<p>I had the same eerie version of deja vu. It reminded me of what Michael Jordan used to say: &#8220;get out of my way and into my poster&#8221;. SAS must have missed out on the last decade even though Red Hat&#8217;s just down the street.</p>
<p>Makes you wonder what would happen if they taught R to MBAs. They&#8217;d probably produce a financial crisis that would dwarf the current one. R may be a threat to future financial stability.</p>
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