Comments on: Baroque Beijing http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/06/17/baroque-beijing.html High-minded, fanatically malthusian perspectives Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:09:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/06/17/baroque-beijing.html/comment-page-1#comment-285413 tdaxp Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:11:46 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=7446#comment-285413 ElamBend, Thanks for your comment! The book is great, especially thru the Kangxi Emperor. Once the Qing cycle of conquest is established, the grandeur diminishes, and it becomes a list of stuff that the Yongzheng Emperor did. Interesting last paragraph. An almost parallel one could be written, for the land at the other end of the Horde: <i>The rise of the Great Qing over the Great Ming (which probably had a better claim as the birth of Modern China), always represented to me the victory of the Mongol system over the Chinese (Han).</i> Hmmm... ElamBend,

Thanks for your comment!

The book is great, especially thru the Kangxi Emperor. Once the Qing cycle of conquest is established, the grandeur diminishes, and it becomes a list of stuff that the Yongzheng Emperor did.

Interesting last paragraph. An almost parallel one could be written, for the land at the other end of the Horde:

The rise of the Great Qing over the Great Ming (which probably had a better claim as the birth of Modern China), always represented to me the victory of the Mongol system over the Chinese (Han).

Hmmm…

]]> By: ElamBend http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/06/17/baroque-beijing.html/comment-page-1#comment-285312 ElamBend Mon, 22 Jun 2009 02:38:43 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=7446#comment-285312 Fascinating. Most of my exposure to the word Tartar is from my Russian wife's family. Of course it's a catch-all there too, though in the west (of Asia) many turko-mongols look more European, less Asian than further east. The book sounds fantastic. I'm going to pick it up. It covers a couple of my fascinations: central Asia and Russian history (Chinese history is not as high up there, but a did take a great class about China taught by Jonathan Spence). The rise of Muscovy over Kieven Rus (which probably has a better claim as the birth of 'Russia), always represented to me the victory of the Mongol system over the Greco-Roman (Byzantium). Fascinating. Most of my exposure to the word Tartar is from my Russian wife’s family. Of course it’s a catch-all there too, though in the west (of Asia) many turko-mongols look more European, less Asian than further east.

The book sounds fantastic. I’m going to pick it up. It covers a couple of my fascinations: central Asia and Russian history (Chinese history is not as high up there, but a did take a great class about China taught by Jonathan Spence).

The rise of Muscovy over Kieven Rus (which probably has a better claim as the birth of ‘Russia), always represented to me the victory of the Mongol system over the Greco-Roman (Byzantium).

]]> By: tdaxp http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/06/17/baroque-beijing.html/comment-page-1#comment-284379 tdaxp Fri, 19 Jun 2009 02:21:39 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=7446#comment-284379 In the context of English-language Chinese history, "Tatar" is a catch-all for North Asian pastueralists. It includes many famous groups of horsemen, including Mongols, Turks, and Manchu. The Great Qing considered their empire to be one of Five Races -- Manchu, Mongol, Turk, Tibetan, and Han -- with the sedentary Han at the bottom and the Tatar everyone-else on top. For instance, Han were not allowed to live withtn the Tatar City (the part of Beijing that is now within the 2nd ring road). A couple of months ago I finished <i>China Marches West: The Qing Conquest of Central Asia</i> which argues that modern China was forged in the successful attempts by two successor states of the Mongol Empire [2] (Muscovy and the Great Qing) to consolidate their hold on the still-nomadic majority of Tatars using their agrarian subjects as an economic and commercial base. [1] http://www.amazon.com/China-Marches-West-Conquest-Central/dp/067401684X [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire In the context of English-language Chinese history, “Tatar” is a catch-all for North Asian pastueralists. It includes many famous groups of horsemen, including Mongols, Turks, and Manchu. The Great Qing considered their empire to be one of Five Races — Manchu, Mongol, Turk, Tibetan, and Han — with the sedentary Han at the bottom and the Tatar everyone-else on top.

For instance, Han were not allowed to live withtn the Tatar City (the part of Beijing that is now within the 2nd ring road).

A couple of months ago I finished China Marches West: The Qing Conquest of Central Asia which argues that modern China was forged in the successful attempts by two successor states of the Mongol Empire [2] (Muscovy and the Great Qing) to consolidate their hold on the still-nomadic majority of Tatars using their agrarian subjects as an economic and commercial base.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/China-Marches-West-Conquest-Central/dp/067401684X
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

]]> By: ElamBend http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2009/06/17/baroque-beijing.html/comment-page-1#comment-284108 ElamBend Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:49:14 +0000 http://www.tdaxp.com/?p=7446#comment-284108 It's funny what you say about the Manchus. I always understood it that the Manchus were distinguishable from the Han by their long noses. But, are they truly Tatars? Or is that a close enough approximation for a slander? It's kind of like Russians in Central Asia, everyone's a little bit Mongol. It’s funny what you say about the Manchus. I always understood it that the Manchus were distinguishable from the Han by their long noses. But, are they truly Tatars? Or is that a close enough approximation for a slander?
It’s kind of like Russians in Central Asia, everyone’s a little bit Mongol.

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